Addressing Sexual Assault and Trauma in Our Nation’s Military

Chris Albert 00:00:01 (link to this point)

The Warrior Soul podcast is written, edited, and produced by me, Albert. Our mission is to provide tools, tactics, strategies, and ideas that help The US military veteran community to show up as the wisest, strongest, most capable versions of themselves in the civilian world. If you're not a veteran, stick around because anything we talk about will most certainly apply to you as well. This podcast is made possible with the help of f bomb nutrition. They make delicious packets of fats that you can carry around anywhere with you in little portable packets.

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Let's get into today's programming.

This is Chris Albert, and I'm here to remind you of one thing. Someday, you're going to die. Now that's not some morbid statement or scary idea. It's solid fact. Your time here on this earth is limited.

And we need to be reminded of this as much as possible for one simple reason, to live your best life while you can. This is the Warrior Soul podcast.

Edmund Burke is known to have said the only thing required for evil to triumph over good is for good men to do nothing. And when we think of the organizations that we admire, the the organizations that we've been a part of, the US military, we think of things like rules and codes. You know, when you go to Marine Corps boot camp, you hear about things like honor, courage, and commitment. You're taught your general orders. You're taught Semper Fidelis, always faithful.

And it's these rules and these codes that form the backbone of any good organization. At the same time, there are many cases where organizations don't live up to the codes that they're supposed to live up to. Well, maybe it's not the organization that doesn't live up to the codes, but the people in those organizations who don't live up to the codes. And when that happens, we have to be very clear eyed about what's going on. And we have to be clear eyed about it because when those rules and those codes go away, the entire organization falls down.

Sexual assault and sexual trauma in the US military is a thing. It happens. It's not something that a lot of us like to talk about. It's not something that we even like to to think about. But it does happen, and it's happened to many service members and probably some of the service members who are listening to this show.

And when it does happen, the assault doesn't stop with the incident. The person who is the victim of that trauma or that episode, they have to continue on. They have to continue on living, and they have to do so with the memory of what happened. And in many cases, when it has happened, the victims involved often move forward without justice and without recourse. So today, we're gonna have that difficult conversation.

I'm bringing on an old friend of mine. His name is Brandon Shelton. He is a lawyer, and he's currently doing pro bono work helping veterans who've been the victims of sexual assault, sexual trauma, but also helping veterans who have experienced other situations and other forms of PTS. And I have to say upfront, Brandon is a friend of mine. I don't necessarily agree with him on everything, but I do admire the work that he is doing.

We had a good conversation about this stuff. Brandon is a veteran of the United States Air Force. He is a practicing corporate lawyer, and he's going out there, and he is doing everything for free. And he's a really great person. He's been personally affected by sexual trauma in the military through people that he knows, and he wanted to do something about it.

And that's something we're constantly talking about on this show is stepping up. You see something wrong with the world, you go out there, you take action. So again, while we don't necessarily see eye to eye on everything, I definitely admire the work he's doing and I wanted him to be able to come on and showcase all the awesome things that he's doing and working to do for our veterans and our service members. And, you know, in situations like this, I think we need to have more of these conversations. We have to have more of these conversations where, you know, I I don't wanna bring somebody on here that that necessarily agrees with me on everything.

And and I think that the more of these conversations that we have, the the more we'll be able to work forward. Because at the end of the day, Brandon and I want the same thing. We want the best for our service members. We want the best for our veterans. We want the best for our country.

It just means that we might have a different idea about how we're gonna get there. So I want you to go into this conversation with an open mind. If you are somebody who has been a victim of sexual trauma, sexual assault in the military, Brandon is somebody whom you should definitely think about reaching out to. If you are experiencing problems with getting benefits for other situations, he's also a potential resource for you. I hope you get a lot out of this.

I want to thank Brandon for coming on here. Like I said, he's a great person and a great friend. Let's get into the conversation. Brandon Shelton, welcome to the Warrior Soul podcast, man.

Brandon Shelton 00:07:57 (link to this point)

Thanks, man. I'm happy to be here. I really appreciate the invite. I know you've been trying to do this for a bit.

Chris Albert 00:08:02 (link to this point)

Yeah, absolutely, man. We've known each other for a long time now, and went to school together for a little bit. Prior to that, you you had served in the US Air Force. And, you know, today, you are making your way as a as a barrister. Right?

Brandon Shelton 00:08:19 (link to this point)

Yeah. I'm an attorney now. You know, my primary practice is strictly in corporate transactions. You know? The the main thing that we do is, you know, we help a lot of startups get off the ground.

They usually come to us. Like, sometimes they come to us before they've even formed. In fact, that's kind of like the plurality of our clients. They they don't even really know where to start. It's pretty common for people to go to, like, LegalZoom and just kinda mess things up, like, real early and then have to, like I can't even tell you, like, how many problems it causes.

Because sometimes when people go to LegalZoom or they go to Rocket Lawyer or they, like, just, like, do a Google search for documents online, you know, it's it's just a huge opportunity to really kind of fuck things up really. Pardon my French. But but it really is just it seems like simple. You know? Like, oh, all you do is file this document with the state, and we're good to go.

But I can't tell you how many times people have straight up formed the wrong entity or just haven't really considered what investors might be looking for. You know? So a lot of times, they they either are, you know, rightfully asking us to kind of come in and advise them on, like, first of all, like, what entity you should even choose, and second of all, how to really draft it correctly. And then another big part of the business is people who've already done that and, you know, made a mess. And so then, you know, that mess alone can sometimes create a lot of distrust amongst founders.

And I've seen companies completely fall apart because of it. And, you know, it wasn't as if anybody was being dishonest or trying to make things difficult. It's just people get real, you know, uptight when their money's involved and their business is involved. So you know?

Chris Albert 00:10:07 (link to this point)

Yep. Yeah. And it's funny because, like, you listen to commercials, like, file for an LLC in five minutes and all this stuff. And, yeah, there's a lot that goes into it.

And and, you know, when eventually you might be selling a company for millions of dollars, that's that there's a lot at stake there. Right?

Brandon Shelton 00:10:25 (link to this point)

Yeah. And in fact, that's actually kind of almost a third issue that we deal with is when companies are trying to sell. In an ideal world, everything looks nice. You know, you've documented everything properly internally with your board resolutions and shareholder resolutions. I would say 70% of the time, that's not the case.

You know? You have to go back and redocument things because it's just not there. And then if, you know, a purchasing company sees that, they're gonna look at it, and they're gonna say, well, who the hell is even in charge? Who owns shares? You know?

And so and they won't be able to tell because you haven't done any of that, you know? And I I I can't tell you how many clients I have who formed a company. And then I say, okay. Well, you know, who owns how many shares? And they just say, oh, well, we own it fifty fifty.

And I said, well, where's the share purchase agreement showing that? They're saying, we never did we never did that. We just, you know, we've just been paying each other that way and operating that way, and it's like, okay.

Chris Albert 00:11:24 (link to this point)

Yeah.

Brandon Shelton 00:11:24 (link to this point)

Stop right there.

Chris Albert 00:11:26 (link to this point)

Yeah.

Brandon Shelton 00:11:26 (link to this point)

Then you have to go back and basically redo everything post incorporation. So

Chris Albert 00:11:31 (link to this point)

I mean, it's crazy. They should they should really teach this stuff in school and in college and and, you know, I mean, I don't know, and we're gonna get way way off track here because I could talk about this stuff for hours. But like Yeah. They really should like give classes on, like, how to start a business, you know. And I think if more people did that, more people understood everything that goes into it, you know, the world would be a a much more organized place at least.

Brandon Shelton 00:11:59 (link to this point)

So Yeah. You know, our firm does a lot of CLEs Mhmm. You know, which continuing legal education. You know, I don't know that we've done one for just, like, simple formation things. That might be something that would actually be kinda useful. But, you know, we do some for, like, funding rounds, like, kind of which, you know, a lot of people when they say, you know, I wanna, you know, raise some money, they just they kinda give you a number of how much they wanna raise, but they have not, in the least bit, considered what type of vehicle they want to do.

So, you know, I do a lot of, like, presentations on that. So Yeah. CLEs are yeah. If you look for those for, like, just forming a company, that's, like, a really good resource for people. If you can find a free continuing legal education on, like, startup considerations.

I think my boss has done some. So it's a totally valuable resource.

Chris Albert 00:12:53 (link to this point)

Check out the podcast. There there was a podcast. It was called StartUp. And the first season talks a lot about this stuff, like, goes into everything. Like, it's literally about a guy starting a business.

After the first season, don't listen to it, because it got horrible after that. But the first season is like gold, as far as those things go. But we we're getting on today though because, you know, you do this work, you went on, you became a lawyer, and and right now you're doing something else. Talk a little bit about that. Tell us what you're what you're working on for the community here.

Brandon Shelton 00:13:32 (link to this point)

Sure. So as part of I guess in an effort to pay it back, as a sort of side, I would call it a business because I don't make any money doing it, but as a side endeavor, I help veterans apply for benefits before the VA, which I know a lot of your listeners probably have really struggled with dealing with the VA in whatever facet. I mean, I'm sure just applying for education benefits isn't always intuitive. In fact, I remember when I was going to college, I needed a lot of help from other people to kind of understand and navigate how to even do that. But what I have done is I have taken, for now it's been only a couple or two or three different veterans under my wing to try and help make sure that they have been successful in applying for VA benefits before the VA, and in particular, getting their disability ratings. Because that, I think, is probably one of the most difficult entities to deal with and one of the most difficult applications to have approved, especially if you didn't do it immediately after your service.

So and the particular cause that I've really been, you know, working with is veterans who have been suffering from PTSD and, in particular, PTSD that comes as a result of military sexual trauma. And so that it's it's a really personal issue to me because I've seen just the absolute wreckage that it can do to veterans. And it opened up, like, you know, when I first started doing it, it opened up such a huge can of worms of all these other veterans who were suffering and were not being taken care of by the VA and were really struggling to even know where to start in getting their benefits and applying for them and being successful. So it really is something that I'm actually pretty passionate about, and it really makes a big difference when you are successful with these claims. Even if you're not, I mean, there's I can't tell you how many failures there are on the way to even just getting a little bit of give from the VA.

Those will hurt a lot, but just you being there for the veteran is like, incredibly meaningful to them and really can just change their path. You know? So

Chris Albert 00:16:16 (link to this point)

Let me let me let's get into a little bit of this because I know you definitely don't wanna talk about case specifics here or anything like that. But, you know, in terms of situations, so generally, sexual assault, it does happen in the military. It is something that happens probably more often than we'd like to talk about. With the service members who end up being the victims of sexual assault in the military, what generally happens? Do they end up normally talking about it?

Do they end up reporting it? Does it go unreported when when you're dealing with this? What what's happened in these cases that that has gotten documented that has allowed you to to find some success here?

Brandon Shelton 00:17:10 (link to this point)

Well, that's actually a really, really interesting and loaded question because I think you probably know that the military is mainly going to rely on what has been documented.

Chris Albert 00:17:23 (link to this point)

Right.

Brandon Shelton 00:17:24 (link to this point)

And there is nothing that is more unreported than military sexual assaults. And that is not exclusive to female veterans. It definitely happens to to males in the service. And that probably even goes more unreported just because there's probably a certain, like, you know and and I and I hate to get too wordy in, like, feminist terminology, but, you know, I I do consider myself a feminist. But nevertheless, there is some sort of masculinity behind, like, I can deal with this on my own.

I can handle this even though that person is is suffering just as much as any other person. So, you know, male sexual assaults definitely go like vastly unreported. I can't remember where I saw it, but I did see like a recent study that said it happens and it goes unreported in either case. And it's really sad. I mean, I I I have veterans that I've talked to who have been had their lives threatened if they went forward with any kind of accusations regarding sexual assault.

I've talked to veterans who were just treated poorly and other veterans who saw that happen to those same veterans decided not to report their own assaults because of the treatment that they sought to other veterans who did or at least were almost forced into the spotlight because of the circumstances surrounding them. So it's it's it's really a tragedy. And, you know, it's something that the military is slowly learning to deal with, but it really has been reporting is absolutely a huge problem, and it and it creates its own hurdle with applying for benefits. So you kinda have if if there is no reporting, which is just they're they're they're almost I would say it's more likely that things will not be reported than they will be, and that really creates issues because then you have to go back and really collect things that are almost in other cases would be semi circumstantial. But if you can collect enough information, you you do have a chance, and you should seek out those benefits.

Chris Albert 00:19:42 (link to this point)

So so with so you're saying basically if it has documented, there's still a chance that you could potentially go after benefits if there's certain certain information out there that exists, if there's witnesses and things like that. Right?

Brandon Shelton 00:19:59 (link to this point)

Right. Right. And so that's that's a great point. It's likely that so the military is gonna start with looking at your medical records. Right?

And they're gonna say, well, you never said anything about that that looks like it looks like sexual trauma. Right? You didn't go to a, you know, a mental health care facility. You report it to your higher ups. There's no personnel file on this.

So what they might look at is what other things you may have done around the time. So if you went and had a pregnancy test near the time or if you had an STD test around the same time. Or and and this kind of gets into really tricky parts of of what the military is willing to consider. But if if you your substance abuse drastically increased at a certain point in time, the military really doesn't like to give benefits based on that evidence, but there is no denying that that evidence is indicia of sexual assault and PTSD. For whatever reason, I don't know why they really wanna take a step back on that part of evidence.

They really, really don't like giving benefits to people who are who end up being reliant upon, you know, drugs and alcohol. But and and that's actually kind of like Why use that?

Chris Albert 00:21:27 (link to this point)

What?

Brandon Shelton 00:21:28 (link to this point)

You know, I don't know. In in the filings that I've submitted, you know, in one in one case that I have and I and I can't talk about who the person is, but I can say that in one case, this person submitted evidence saying like, Look, here's a point in time where my drugs and alcohol drastically increased. And so the VA said, Well, we have you saying at some later date that you had tried drugs and alcohol sometime before. Trying is not the same thing as abuse, right? Think any of us can admit that.

If you go to a friend's party and you have a beer, you're not abusing it. You're being responsible. Right?

Chris Albert 00:22:13 (link to this point)

Right.

Brandon Shelton 00:22:14 (link to this point)

But if you are waking up and don't have to go to work that day and your sole option to occupy yourself as well, maybe I'll drink this handle of vodka. That's obviously a different type of substance use.

Chris Albert 00:22:31 (link to this point)

Mhmm.

Brandon Shelton 00:22:32 (link to this point)

And the VA has, for whatever reason, not done a good job, at least in this case, of distinguishing that. So in my opinion, one thing that I've been really thinking about and one thing that I might even try to do is I actually think that it should be proposed that in the case where somebody is suffering from PTSD, and even in particular, people who have suffered PTSD as a result of MST, military sexual trauma, that they shouldn't be able to look at they shouldn't be able to deny you benefits based on substance use or anything else that can really be tied to those indicia, like, you know, behavioral issues that increase, you know, kind of becoming listless, being you know, getting worse at your job, you know, talking back to authority a lot. There there's this whole list that that is actually written into the, you know, the regulations that they use to decide these claims. But for whatever reason, it's still kind of discretionary as to, like, how they even consider it. And so I think they shouldn't really be able to even use that as evidence against you.

So if they're saying like, oh, we have evidence that you've drank before this occasion, well, that shouldn't even be brought up. You should just say, well, is there an increase? Yes. If so, that's evidence of and nothing. And and the conversation should really end there, in my opinion.

Chris Albert 00:23:55 (link to this point)

So so I and I'm trying to get this straight in my head. If they so the VA normally catches wind of any kind of substance abuse involved in one of these cases, they'll tend to deny the benefits, just based off the fact that substance abuse is present with this person.

Brandon Shelton 00:24:17 (link to this point)

I can't say that's a 100% yes. I think what I'm saying is they might what they'll try to do is they'll try to see if there's any prior use of substances. So if you say on 01/01/2018, I started really using badly, they'll say, well, hey. Here's some evidence. You said back in January 2010 that you like to drink socially or that you've drank before or you've used pot before.

They'll say, well, you already have a history. Right. So what so what do we know about that? And at that point, they'll wash their hands, you know.

Chris Albert 00:24:57 (link to this point)

So let's say somebody is is currently in the military, and they're experiencing sexual trauma, sexual abuse. What are some steps they should be taking? And obviously, there is the whole chronicling issue. But in your mind, what would what should somebody do if they experience, an assault?

Brandon Shelton 00:25:24 (link to this point)

That is an excellent question. And that's a really hard question to answer because it really, really depends on circumstances.

Chris Albert 00:25:32 (link to this point)

Mhmm.

Brandon Shelton 00:25:34 (link to this point)

Back in the day and I know you're asking me sort of a present question, but back in the day, there weren't as many resources for people to reach out to to to report these things and not suffer the blowback of people people, you know, saying this person is just trying to get attention or some kind of BS like that. You know? However, currently, they have set up more people within the military to protect people who report sexual assault. I don't know that it's the same in every single station, but if there is some kind of support system for you and they've specifically identified that, you definitely should reach out.

Chris Albert 00:26:21 (link to this point)

Okay.

Brandon Shelton 00:26:22 (link to this point)

Again, that doesn't mean that everybody around you is going to be supportive, and that really is the tragedy. If you feel that you can't report it, which I'm sorry to say that, really, it it probably still is the case that there are people who don't feel safe reporting it, you should confide in people who you do know are safe. And it's it's sometimes it's hard to find that person, and it's a hard situation to talk about. But at a minimum, you should start talking to people and reaching out because you're not alone, and there will be people out there who will protect you and will have your interests in mind. Secondly, even if you don't want to tell any people why or what you're doing, you should definitely go to a doctor to get yourself tested for STDs or pregnancy tests.

Create a record that you can point to later to say, this is why I was doing it. And the military will look at your medical records. Additionally, if there is an ability for you to reach out to mental health professionals, that people who are it is their job to protect you, you should definitely seek that out. I I think there's kind of a stigma in the in in this country in general that if you reach out for mental health services that, you know, you've sort of failed somehow. I've gone through that.

I've sought help from mental health professionals, and I've only ever received a positive experience and really strengthened my character in doing so. You are not weak for going to seek mental health. You can only make yourself stronger by doing so. You should know that their job is to help you and get you through these things. And if nothing else, that, again, creates an additional record that you can point to later on, especially if you're applying for benefits related to PTSD when you do exit the military.

Chris Albert 00:28:33 (link to this point)

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's something that we all have to learn to do is to reach out for help and and, you know, to to realize when we're in a place where that we're not gonna be able to pull ourselves off. A lot of times, you know, you get yourself into a hole and, and you think there's nobody around that cares, but there, there are resources out there that you can, you can, can go after. With with a situation like this, though, I mean, are are there currently structures built into the chains of command that will allow people to report something, like this without fear of repercussion?

Brandon Shelton 00:29:14 (link to this point)

You know, that is that is something that I believe that they have provided now. Obviously, I haven't been in the military for over fifteen years. Yeah. They didn't really have that when when I was in the military. You'd you know, you've you report it to your chain.

Right? But then the chain has to kind of, like, navigate. Well, you know, they'll they'll have to, like, do their own investigation. And that sort of doesn't it isn't really kind of in a protective atmosphere. Right?

But Right. These days, my understanding in my conversations with people who are currently still enlisted or just left, they have been trying to offer those avenues. And forgive me. I don't know what that is. I think it exists.

They I know that they have social workers in the military now who are there specifically for providing support to victims of sexual assault. Some of the veteran or some of the current military members that I have had to interview in my investigations have said as much. You know, they do, like, a lot of presentations on what people should do in light of sexual assault. So those are the people that you wanna get in touch with because they're the ones who are gonna be able to, like, help you navigate that and protecting, you know, you personally and protecting you physically kind of, you know, because, like I said, there was one instance where a veteran had reported her sexual assault. And in fact, it went that the person was prosecuted because somebody that she told told her higher ups, and then she ended up being a witness in this guy's prosecution, and he was convicted based on her prosecution.

And she was still denied benefits and was still knocked down a bit on her discharge even though she was clearly suffering from PTSD, and it was fully documented, which was just absolutely insane to me. But dialing back to the actual issue. Where was I going with this?

Chris Albert 00:31:20 (link to this point)

So with that person, right, you you were talking about the the the individual who they they told somebody within their chain of command that wasn't related to the incident. That person then went and went to the chain of command. The perpetrator was prosecuted. They got a conviction, but that person didn't end up getting the benefits. The victim did not end up getting the benefits, even though the perpetrator was found guilty of committing the crime.

Brandon Shelton 00:31:49 (link to this point)

Right. So so what was interesting, though, about that case was everything was clear. Right? You know, they went to court. The court convicted him, and he went to jail. The people around that veteran were just hostile to her.

You know? They felt like they like, she hurt one of their own. Right? I mean, you know, when we're in the military, we're very protective of everybody around us. You know?

We're there to protect each other. Right? And when you when when and they see that as you harming somebody, and now they kind of, you know, they take it out on you, fully failing to realize that this person was convicted and this person was guilty. You know, this person did something that was far more egregious than just telling on a person, you know? And people sort of put their blinders on.

They say, why would you do that to one of ours? You know? And, well, why would he do this? But anyways, another person in that same unit had been sexually assaulted. I don't know that it was by this person.

I couldn't say that one way or the other. Circumstances were kind of interesting, but I don't wanna get too far into that. But this person, you know, had heard about this particular occurrence and the conviction and the and saw the blowback. And one of the things that really scared this veteran into silence was the fact that they said while they were downrange that they were going to take her and shoot her in the back of the head because now they all felt like they were a target even though the other guy was a target because of something he actually did, not some Yeah. You know, made up story that they think that they're going to be in their head. So

Chris Albert 00:33:45 (link to this point)

You know? So one of the things here, I mean, this is, I mean, first and foremost, I mean, this is a real issue with leadership, right? Because if you get people in this situation, I mean, I think to a certain extent, we have all got to decide in our heads what is right and wrong, what is good and bad. Think one of the problems with human beings in general is like, we are social people, we need to be around people. We also tend tend to take on the personalities and and the attributes of those we we surround ourselves with.

But I think, you know, one of the things that has to happen for us to function correctly in the military is that leadership needs to exist to set that tone for how people act. And I think that, you know, in a situation like this, you know, the NCOs, the officers, this is a situation where they need to step up, and they need to decide, okay, this is wrong. This is what needs to happen. What would your advice be to the junior leaders, the the NCOs, the the the the team leaders, the squad leaders, the the the junior officers who might come in contact with this kind of stuff? What would you say to them?

Brandon Shelton 00:35:08 (link to this point)

You know, that is an excellent question, and that's actually an excellent point about leadership. I think they have an absolute responsibility to really set the tone in how people respond to these kinds of situations. Because, you if somebody gets prosecuted for sexual assault, eventually that's just not gonna be a secret anymore. Right?

Chris Albert 00:35:27 (link to this point)

Right.

Brandon Shelton 00:35:28 (link to this point)

And there's no denying the fact that if leadership kind of takes a step back and says, Well, everybody's gonna think the way they think. I have no way to influence that, and just sort of lets people be angry at the victim, that's a problem. They really should make it clear that you know, you don't really need to be neutral here. You know? You really have to show the people support who really need it.

And I know a lot of people say, well, how many reports are actually lies? You know? I mean, it's such a small amount that you should be willing to risk the possibility that it's not true because the likelihood that it is true is exponentially higher. You know? And so you really need to to sack up, stand by the victims, say, you know, and this has been in the media a lot, you know, believe all victims.

Well, not really, but you know, you really need to give people the benefit of the doubt that when they come to you and they say something's wrong, I've been harmed by this, and it adds up in a lot of ways that you have a responsibility to show that person support. You know, it's possible that I mean, there's always cases where something happens and it turns out not to be true or just the evidence may not support it. You know, that happens. It doesn't necessarily mean the person's even lying. You know?

It just means that there wasn't enough evidence to support something, and that that's just you know, I'm an attorney. I don't deal with, like, what people think that means. If the evidence isn't there, then it just isn't there to rise to the level of a conviction or whatever other legal standard is. That does not mean it didn't happen. So I think that the leadership really has a responsibility to step up, stand by, and say, you know what?

I'm here for you. If anybody gives you hostility towards this at all, you know, come to me, and I will deal with it. And, in fact, if you, as a leader, are seeing that kind of hostility, you should be nipping nipping it in the bud immediately. Say, you know, this is one of our own. This is an actual injury, and we need to treat it as such, and you guys need to be there to support this person and let things play out as they will.

Okay? Because otherwise, they're going to run off with whatever opinions that they form of whether or not the person's reliable, whether or not they believe it, whether or not they think that, you know, things add up. You know? That's not their place. That's the place of fact finders.

You know? They need to to sack up and be supportive of the person who is actually reporting an injury. So

Chris Albert 00:38:22 (link to this point)

Right. And, I mean and I think, you know, with with me too, and everything that was coming down the pike, I mean, there's definitely situations like, in my opinion, where where people were kind of going overboard on on what they were throwing out there. At the same time, these things are so important not to ignore. They are so important not to to allow in your midst. Like when you have a situation, whether it be in the military or in a company, you can quickly poison the waters by somebody who is is frankly a predator, who who is in your midst, right?

That can that can ruin ruin everything. It can it can tear down a company's culture, can tear down a company's success, and it can tear down the morale and well-being of of all your workers. Right?

Brandon Shelton 00:39:13 (link to this point)

Right.

Chris Albert 00:39:14 (link to this point)

It is it is a crazy situation that that, think companies allow themselves to get into because of tolerance, they are tolerating this type of behavior in their midst, and it is not something that should be tolerated whatsoever.

Brandon Shelton 00:39:35 (link to this point)

Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, the the the me too movement, it's not without its flaws. You know? But in a way, I mean, consider the alternative.

Things being, you know, the the the existence of tolerance. Right? Like, based on your point. You know? Without the Me Too movement, you know, there's probably a a greater propensity to just kind of ignore things and tolerate things and to sort of let thing let the chips fall as they will.

Let let everybody form their own opinions. Everybody's allowed to form their own opinions.

Chris Albert 00:40:10 (link to this point)

Mhmm.

Brandon Shelton 00:40:10 (link to this point)

But that is also an opinion that, as you mentioned, might end up being part of the poisoned well. You know? And and again, it kind of goes back to, well, that's one of our own. That's injured, but you're really failing to consider both injuries. Right?

I mean, yeah, if somebody is prosecuted and are held to be not guilty, that's one thing, but, you know, that isn't a that that isn't really that common. What's more common is the well-being poisoned, people really coming down hard on a person that has suffered a serious injury. And so I think, you know, the me too movement, despite its flaws, is sort of kind trying to, like, tilt the scale back in the other direction. Did it overdo it a little bit? You know, I'm I think there are a couple of cases to suggest that, but on a lot in a lot of cases, you know Yeah. You saw people just ignoring it. You know?

Chris Albert 00:41:03 (link to this point)

So I mean, you take a monster like Harvey Weinstein. Right? And you have to think about the the culture that allowed somebody like that to exist. Right? Like the, it, it, I mean, yeah, he's the monster, but there's also a lot of other monsters out there who, who kind of fed the fed the beast.

Right. You know, supporting and, and enabling him to do everything that he did, You know?

Brandon Shelton 00:41:28 (link to this point)

Exactly.

Chris Albert 00:41:28 (link to this point)

Take this situation with, like, Jeffrey Epstein with, Ghislaine Maxwell. And and, I mean, the guy's a billionaire. Right? There there there's eyes on, you know, on on what he's doing. People people knew.

You know, if you actually dig deeper, there's people out there who were helping him to find victims. And and, you know, in a situation like the military where young men and women are imbued with a a good amount of power. Right? You take a a, you know, a 19 year old Lance Corporal in the Marine Corps. He's got more power than than a lot of other people out there.

You know, that Lance Corporals will be responsible for a lot. You know, you take a 21 year old team leader. They're responsible for the well-being of a of of of their team. You take you take squabble. I mean, we're talking about people who are in their teens and twenties right now.

Brandon Shelton 00:42:21 (link to this point)

You know? Yeah. I I think about that a lot of the responsibilities that was that I shouldered in the military. I didn't even think it's that much, but to have that put on somebody who just locked out of high school, I mean, that's that's just that's a lot. Right.

A lot of soldiers. That's the weight of the world. You know? You know? You are protecting people, protecting freedoms of this country.

You hold a gun. You have, you know, some authority to walk into the front lines and be the person who says, you know, I'm here for it to protect you. And, you know, I may never have even sipped a beer in my life. You're like, that's just insane. So

Chris Albert 00:43:00 (link to this point)

Right. Yeah. It is. And I mean, that's why I think there's gotta be, you know, you have got to carry a certain amount of values in there with you. And if you do not have a strong sense of what your values are and what your code is, that is why I think in basic training, you know, they are constantly slamming home the code, right?

Are constantly slamming home core values. Are constantly slamming home the things that that that that keep the Marine Corps, the Air Force, the Army, the Navy together. And that is why they are constantly repeating them. And I think that what a lot of us tend to forget is that without those codes, without that, there is chaos. And when there's chaos, that's when predators come and and and they they do their thing.

I think as a society, yeah, we're getting to a point where there there's too few people with an actual code, you know?

Brandon Shelton 00:43:58 (link to this point)

Yeah. And I think what we're seeing a lot of now, like, again, going back to, like, the Me Too movement is, you know, the the things that end up, like, on social media and the way that people react on their thing you know, people like to see things as very black and white, and that really is kind of a problem. You know, there's really no ability to kind of sift through things in terms of how they're educating themselves. You know? And that is a problem.

Yeah. That that being said, you're also right that people need to if they don't come into the military with values, you know, they need to get them from somewhere that comes from strong leadership, that comes from leadership who understands the severity of the these problems, especially in the military, and is willing to take it upon themselves to help correct the situation, to protect the people who have, you know, made these claims, and to educate people around everybody in a productive way that allow that makes them feel comfortable coming forward and that lets them know that they are not going to be met with hostility from anybody. And in fact, anybody, it's almost circular, but anybody who comes in and is hostile to somebody who's reported these kinds of things, they should be the ones met with hostility because they're the ones really developing an opinion without knowing a damn thing. So

Chris Albert 00:45:23 (link to this point)

Right.

Right. You know, the other thing to think about here too, I mean, when we're talking about sexual assault, we're talking about, you know, it's it's really about power. Right? Exerting your power over another individual, forcibly exerting power over another individual. We hear a lot of these terms like toxic masculinity being tossed around.

I'm of the belief that sexual assault has nothing to do with masculinity at all. It's a very unmasculine act. I think that you know, when we're thinking about things like this, you know, it it it's something that kinda goes against everything you signed up for. I mean, you're you're you're exerting your power over a person, trying to make them feel weaker, because it just makes you feel good, right, in some way.

Brandon Shelton 00:46:22 (link to this point)

Yeah.

Chris Albert 00:46:23 (link to this point)

Is really the worst thing you could do, literally the worst thing you could do. I think the fact that we're talking about it, it's a good thing. I also think that in many ways, our society is getting further and further away from the base codes that would prevent this from happening. You have got generations of people who grew up learning about sex from pornography, you know, and and things like that. And it's it's it's kinda crazy when you think about it.

Brandon Shelton 00:47:06 (link to this point)

Yeah. I mean, this is a this is I I I think about this a lot. You know? I had a record record player when I was a kid. You know? And you definitely had to develop a lot of your understanding of of of intercourse through just the resources were not there. You're certainly right that in a way, there is a problem with this generation having all this information so easily accessible and having absolutely no way to distinguish it, and that includes pornography. And in fact, there's been a lot of, you know, documentaries and things about that. There was one on Netflix that Rashida Jones had put out. I forget what it was called, but it was actually kind of enlightening. And it was basically like, look. First of all, pornography is is harmful to the people watching it. Secondly, it's harmful to people engaging in it.

You know? These women are treated really poorly and don't make a lot of money, and their lives are basically ruined for this endeavor. And there's just a huge saturation of it. So we definitely live in an age where there is so much information out there and absolutely no way to really sift through it in any kind of intelligible way and to make that useful in the real world. And, again, including in intercourse.

And I'm and I have no doubt that that contributes to, you know, problems of of sexual assault. You know? So

Chris Albert 00:48:43 (link to this point)

Yeah. And, I mean, it takes away the context because, I mean, a real relationship is I mean, I love I love my relationship that I'm in right now. Right? It's it's been great. I've been with this girl for for seven years now, and it's been awesome.

But, you know, there's also there's good in there, there's hard things that come with it, right? You know, when you're trying to make a decision about something, when you're trying to when you're making the decision for yourself, it's one thing. You're making it with another person, particularly, you know, women, there is a lot of complexity that gets involved, right? They like to dissect things, and they make things a little bit harder. And you know, when you are full of yourself, you know, they will do something that will take you down just a little bit of a notch, right?

Like so you know, you had a great day at work, but then you come home and you forget to take your shoes off when you come in the door or something like that. You know, there is things that I think we've got to learn about each other as we're getting into relationships. My fear is that, you know, people expect there to be sex and arm candy, but not much else. And it's not how it works, you know, and and I know you you you're a taken man, and and you've been in a relationship for for a while now. And, you know, there's there's great things about it.

There's annoying things about it, frankly. And I think that that we've all gotta learn that. Right?

Brandon Shelton 00:50:21 (link to this point)

Definitely. Yeah. I mean and and that's that's kind of a conundrum in itself. Sexual assault aside, like, teaching people how to function in a society with so much information that's primarily driven towards con consumption at at all costs. You know? That's that's really difficult. You know?

I don't even know that I have a solution for that. But you're right. I am the take command. I think I have great character. I think one way that you can actually educate yourself and be part of the solution and not the problem is to really study up on, especially military sexual trauma.

Just, you know, go read an article about it. You know, really take it seriously. Really see for what it is, just objectively the numbers, the problems, the lack of reporting. You know? That will at least, if nothing that has that alone has caused me as a man to take a step back and reflect on my conduct towards women.

You know? And I'm not saying that I've ever really done anything that obviously falls to the level that the people, you know, the the the predators have engaged in. Right? But it has allowed me to really take a step back and say, you know, how are women being treated in this society, and how am I contributing to that, and what can I do to be better? And if you do that, if you take it upon yourself to really engage and take this stuff seriously, there is no like, it's it's invaluable.

You will, at least if nothing else, desire to be better as a man.

Chris Albert 00:52:04 (link to this point)

I think at the bot the bottom line is respect. Right? If you're gonna be in a relationship, the the core thing, you have to have things you agree on, and you have to respect each other. Right? And and, you know, when we went to school with each other, we went to UC Santa Barbara, and that environment is definitely an interesting one when you take relationships between the sexes into account.

Alright? People act a certain way when they are in that environment. And, you know, it's an interesting thing to now be, you know, ten, fifteen years later, we're sitting here, you know, and in a completely different situation, right? And I think that, you know, part of it is really educating our younger people as to, you know, okay, right, you're young, you go out, you want to have a good time and all these different things. But that doesn't necessarily carry over to a productive relationship at all.

Brandon Shelton 00:53:05 (link to this point)

Yeah. Sorry. My dog is going crazy.

Chris Albert 00:53:07 (link to this point)

That's okay.

Brandon Shelton 00:53:07 (link to this point)

There's probably a UPS guy outside. But exactly. So I think that would definitely happen. Let me go get her real quick.

Chris Albert 00:53:16 (link to this point)

That's all good.

Brandon Shelton 00:53:20 (link to this point)

Alright. Yeah. Sorry about that. Anyway, I do have to jump off of this in about five minutes. One thing that I also sorry if I'm switching gears here a little bit.

One thing that I also did want to talk about was the fact you know, where I've seen success in filing for claims. Recently, we did have a claim for VA benefits approved. It took us two and a half years, and it was a really simple claim. It was low hanging fruit. There was documented medical evidence of it.

There's testimonial evidence from people. And this couldn't have been a clear claim. It was actually for a physical injury, for a hip injury, which you would think is like, well, that's fairly simple. Is the injury there? Does the person have pain?

There's a three part test that the VA considers, and it's, was there an injury? Is there a current ailment? Is there a tie between the two? Meaning, can you show documented evidence over the years that this has been a problem? I thought it couldn't have been clearer.

I got denial after denial from the VA. And we spent two and a half years appealing that decision and adding new evidence to the pile. And one question that people might have is like, Well, if I'm denied benefits, what do I do with that? Is that the end of my recommendation is use that denial as information on what you're missing because they'll tell you. They'll basically say, You said that there was this injury.

You gave us information that said, you know, that ties this back to October 2014. However, the injury was in February 2012. And this is actually kind of the annoying part is that they sort of ignore the fact that you might just be dealing with something without having, like, really needed any, follow ups for quite a while. That's the way injuries work is they tend to deteriorate over time. But nevertheless, they'll give you a gap.

They'll say, Well, you have a gap here in your evidence. They'll deny it based on that gap. But the good thing about filing for VA claims is you can file supplemental claims and you can say, Hey, okay, here's more information. Here is what the information Here, let me fill that gap for you. Right?

And even then you may still get a denial. And what they might deny it based on is the fact that you may be using lay evidence. You know, I actually really like to reach out to people and have them describe personal accounts of, you know, the injury. You know? Did this person complain about pain?

Did this person complain? Did you see a rise in this person's substance abuse? You know? What was your opinion of, like, that drastic change? And, you know, I like to write help that you know, I I I'd like to take affidavits from them to present as evidence that this is an observation from somebody else who's seeing this happen.

This isn't just us saying, yeah. It's always been a problem. It's other people who have seen it. Right? But they may still say, Well, that's lay evidence.

We only like medical evidence. So that is an opportunity to go out and find a doctor who can work with you and evaluate the evidence that you've collected. So if you've collected testimonial evidence from other people, you can give that to the doctor and say, Look, this is what everybody says. I didn't write this, they did. And then the doctor can say, Well, of course, there's clearly a tie here and here's my opinion.

And so the goal here is to get it as equally as likely as not. The standard for receiving benefits, you don't have to prove it more likely than not. And people get really kind of lost in legal terms like this. What does equally likely does not mean beyond a reasonable doubt, all these other terms, you know, because people hear things on TV. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a criminal liability standard that's very, very high.

It's very difficult. More likely than not is a preponderance of the evidence. That's basically for civil claims. But the VA standard is even lower than that. You just have to show that there is an equal likelihood as a not as an unlikely hood that the injury happened, that the current ailment exists, and that there's a tie between the two.

So if you are failing on any of that, the VA will tell you where you're failing and use that as an opportunity to find what they told you is missing. Don't give up. It may take years, but if you keep piling on the evidence, eventually they will cave, Hopefully.

Chris Albert 00:58:25 (link to this point)

Awesome.

Brandon Shelton 00:58:26 (link to this point)

Awesome.

Chris Albert 00:58:27 (link to this point)

That's good information. So you're doing this as a regular practice on the side right now. Are you taking on new cases? Are you working with new people right now?

Brandon Shelton 00:58:45 (link to this point)

Do plan to open up my pro bono efforts. What I offer is free of charge. If there's anybody out there who has been reluctant to file a claim, especially based on PTSD and especially as a result of MST, you know, I encourage you to reach out to me. You know, you can reach me. Do they have your information?

I can give my information on here if somebody wants to reach out.

Chris Albert 00:59:11 (link to this point)

Or we can put it on the show notes for the episode too.

Brandon Shelton 00:59:14 (link to this point)

Okay. Yeah. I mean, you can contact me at my work email, brandon@bendlawoffice.com, if you're interested in at least just, you know, pinging me to find out a little bit more information. You know, I only do a couple of cases at a time just because it's taxing time wise and it's taxing emotionally trying to sift through this. You know, it's really hard.

That being said, the reason why I'm saying that is because I'll fight for you in a way that really takes a toll on me. And I know that my struggles do not compare to yours, but, you know, I think it's really important that people have a voice and that they have somebody who is able to really sort through this difficult filing and this difficult review of something that's obviously very painful. So

Chris Albert 01:00:11 (link to this point)

Definitely. Definitely. Well, Brandon, I wanna thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you for the information that you brought to the table, and thank you for the work you're doing.

Brandon Shelton 01:00:21 (link to this point)

Absolutely.

Chris Albert 01:00:22 (link to this point)

And thank you for your service.

Brandon Shelton 01:00:24 (link to this point)

Oh, you as well. Thank you, man. It's been my pleasure. It's been a weird full circle of where I've come into paying it back towards my service, but I value it and I value our service members so much. And I really appreciate everybody's service out there who's out there regardless. Awesome.

Chris Albert 01:00:45 (link to this point)

Awesome. Well, guys, everybody listening, thank you so much for listening to this episode. We'll get all of the information and the references that Brandon mentioned during the episode up on the show notes. And, you know, lots of lessons here today. Above all, I think respect each other, you know, develop your set of core values, know what's right and wrong, and stand for what you think is right.

Thanks again, everybody, for listening, and we'll be back at you later on with some more awesome content. This is Chris and Brandon, and we are out. Alright, guys. There you have it. That is our interview with mister Brandon Shelton.

And I can't emphasize this enough. It's values that keep us going. It is our core ethic that keeps us going. You have to decide what's right and what's wrong in this world, and you have to stand for what's good. And, you know, if you have been a victim of something like this or you know of somebody who's been a victim of something like this and you want to reach out, we're going have all the links necessary to get in touch with Brandon up on the show notes for this episode.

And, you know, I just wanna tell you guys this. The world, it seems like it's going crazy right now. It seems like the world is upside down in many ways. And I wanna tell you to keep going. Right?

No matter what is going on in the world, it doesn't take away from our responsibility to move forward to grow as individuals. And the more we do that, the more we'll be able to step up and change things for the better. I've got some great things planned for the next few weeks. I am working to get the show back on track. Life has been hectic with this cross country move, trying to get back on a regular recording schedule and trying to get some great interviews in here for the bank.

If you've got any ideas for guests, please send them over to me. You can feel free to email me at chris@warriorsoulagoge.com or reach out to me on social media. I am at Warrior Soul Agoge on Instagram at warrior soul gear on Twitter, and that's that. Get out there and live your best lives while you can. This is Chris, and I am out.