Tools and Practices for Overcoming Depression with Mike Ergo

Chris Albert 00:00:00 (link to this point)

This is Chris Albert, and I'm here to remind you of one thing. Someday, you're going to die. Now that's not some morbid statement or scary idea. It's solid fact. Your time here on this earth is limited.

You need to be reminded of this as much as possible for one simple reason, to live your best life while you can. This is the Warrior Soul Podcast.

Chris Albert 00:00:39 (link to this point)

What's going on everybody? Welcome to the Warrior Soul podcast. And this is the second edition of our podcast network episodes with Mike Ergo from Transitions From War. If you didn't listen to the last one, our, the inaugural episode, that was where we reviewed Can't Hurt Me by David Goggins. This week, we're going into a little bit more of Mike and my experience with depression.

And we're talking about different tools, different tactics, different things that we've used to overcome depression. Mike has extensive experience with this. He works as a therapist with the Department of Veterans Affairs, and he's also dealt with a lot of depression on his own. He's a Marine Corps veteran like myself. And, you know, I'm really excited about this this podcasting network that we've got going on.

Each week, we're doing an episode on each other's shows, and we're jumping back and forth and giving our insights. Next week, we'll be on the Transitions From War podcast. And if you haven't checked out Mike Ergo's Transitions From War, you definitely need to do so. Really great podcast with a lot of tools and things that will help you along on your way. Just a quick note here.

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Really nutritious stuff. You can get yours for 20% off by heading over to www.dropanfbomb.com. Use the code Warrior Soul at checkout, you know, and you'll get 20% off your first order. With that, let's get into this joint episode with mister Mike Ergo from Transitions From War talking about depression. What is going on everyone?

This is Chris Albert here with Mike Ergo. What are we calling ourselves, Mike? What are we?

Mike Ergo 00:02:48 (link to this point)

I don't know, man. Veteran Podcast Network sounds a little too generic.

Chris Albert 00:02:52 (link to this point)

Veteran Podcasts, we call ourselves. Man. Yeah, that's an interesting one. We'll think about it. We'll think about it.

But for now, it's Chris Albert and Mike Ergo or Mike Ergo and Warrior Soul and Transitions From War. And we're coming to you every single week to discuss an important issue, a new book, cool stuff that we come across and give you some tips to move forward with your lives. If you weren't here for last week's inaugural edition, we talked about David Goggins's book, Can't Hurt Me. And this week, we're going be talking about a really important issue. And that's how to deal with depression.

And I think it's something both of us have experienced, probably in in very different ways. But but I think we both experienced it. We both developed some tools to work around it. I've talked about it a lot here on the Warrior Soul podcast. And I know Mike's talked about it a lot on Transitions From War.

And I know we've talked about it together during the shows that we've done together. But we want to get into some some nitty gritty tools today.

Mike Ergo 00:04:12 (link to this point)

Yeah. Sounds good. That's it's it's definitely a thing that's not talked about too much. I think especially among men, because I think women tend in general to be able to to talk about or at least have the vocabulary for for it. You know, men usually, it's it's difficult to admit to it, because there's a stigma around it.

And then there's also just the lack of vocabulary. You know, a lot of guys, myself included, are predisposed or maybe just more likely to have a few different words to describe an emotional state, you know, such as okay, stoked, or bummed out. You know?

Chris Albert 00:04:56 (link to this point)

Yeah. As few words as possible. Right? And then Exactly. And then you just move it on to the the next thing.

We we just want it to be, I think, as as, you know, not we we don't wanna really admit that it's there. And I think it goes back to you know, we we talked about we're probably gonna do Jordan Peterson's book, 12 rules for a living at some point, but I think it goes back to the idea that it's not really in what we don't think it's in our archetype. Right? And and it doesn't fit the story. And I think men, you know, it's important for us to try to live by an archetype.

And if if we could figure out an archetype that includes that in the story, and, you know, where we can own our story, I think it'll be a lot easier to talk about. But what so so talk about your experience with depression. When did it start for you, man?

Mike Ergo 00:05:57 (link to this point)

Yeah, this has been a lifelong thing for me. And the more I look back on my life, the more I can see it there. And I think some people are more predisposed to habit. And I actually went back and I did the 23andMe genetic testing. You spit in a cup and then they tell you a couple different things.

You know, one, different markers for ancestry, but then two, different markers for, like, health benefits and risks.

Chris Albert 00:06:31 (link to this point)

Mhmm.

Mike Ergo 00:06:32 (link to this point)

And I used that information, and I plugged it in. It's interesting because once you have that genetic information, you can plug that into different websites and some that make ask you to pay and some that are free. But actually, so I came across this other website. I think it's geneticgenie.com. And and I'll send you the link so we can put it in the show notes.

But it was something that it was looking at genetic mutations. So just differences in DNA from person to person. And some of these mutations predispose people to be less likely to reuptake or to utilize things like serotonin and dopamine. Mhmm. And I definitely have genetic variations on those specific markers.

So I realized that, okay, that that makes a lot of sense. Because I look back in my life and early, like, growing up wasn't too bad. Everything was pretty good, relatively speaking, you know, I had a place to sleep, I had people that cared about me, I had a safe environment to live in. But then not, look back and there's there's a dark cloud over me. And so some of it was genetic, and some of it was ways of dealing with it.

But I can definitely relate more to the periods of my life since I've got out of the Marine Corps, and kind of tried to find purpose or, or, you know, just the more recent examples of when I've kind of fallen into that dark hole of depression.

Chris Albert 00:08:18 (link to this point)

Yeah, I well, you know, for me, yeah, it goes back to childhood. I've done the 23andMe test. I haven't done what you're talking about. So I'm going to have to upload my stuff into into that website. So I'm looking forward to getting that.

But but yeah, for me, mean, it goes back to childhood. And you know, it's, it's like, I think it came about because it was a feeling like I couldn't fix my life, right? Like, felt like I had no, no recourse to try to fix things that were going wrong in my life. Now what was going wrong in my life at the time? Well, I didn't, you know, I didn't have a dad.

I, you know, I had my mom. And I was really, really lonely, I think as a kid, you know, and just spent a lot of time by myself. And one of the things I I've grown to understand as an adult is that human beings are very social. And if you're not around other people, it allows you to go into certain holes in your brain, right? So you dig yourself in certain holes.

And, and I find when I'm by myself too often, a lot of times I'll dig myself into a hole of despair. And it's not really like, it's like these mental constructs I'll create, you know, the negative self talk, the the, you know, you're not good enough to do this, or you're not good enough to do that, or you're not good enough to, know, for example, running my business, you know, I spent a lot of time alone over the last few years running my business, and it was a constant battle. Like, you know, you don't deserve this business. You don't deserve to be here. You don't deserve this.

You don't deserve that. There is no reason why you should be be doing this. You should just go get a job at Starbucks, that kind of shit.

Mike Ergo 00:10:21 (link to this point)

Yeah. And then you you don't have other people around you to to check those Right.

Chris Albert 00:10:25 (link to this point)

Thoughts and assertions. Right? Right. Exactly. And because you don't have anybody to talk to about it, you you end up, you know, validating that conversation in your head, and it becomes part of you, you know, it becomes part of you.

And, you know, I found that I need other people as much as I hate it. As much as sometimes I hate being around other people. I need other people. Need other people to talk to.

Mike Ergo 00:10:52 (link to this point)

It's a necessary thing. And not just for the validation or things people say, but we are wired. We have what's called mirror neurons. So, like, you're looking in a mirror. But these mirror neurons, when you're when you're with other people, you can experience feelings that they're having.

And that's the the core basis for compassion and empathy in in human race. And so that's how we get along. That's how we evolved, you know, to to cooperate and work together. If we can see someone else's suffering or we can share in someone else's joy, that that is, you know, the we get that just from seeing other people look that look in their face. So it's like almost like living vicariously through them in a way.

So when we don't have that contact with other people, we're not getting that feedback into our brain. And that's, you know, that's why we look at the the archetype of the, you know, the crazy loner who lives in the woods, maybe the Ted Kaczynski type Mhmm. Is is there because they're not getting that feedback from anyone else. And so those assertions that you make the negative self talk then gets confirmed by your own further negative self talk. And so you're building a house of cards on on that, like, negative shit talking yourself.

Chris Albert 00:12:08 (link to this point)

Yeah. No. Exactly. And let me ask you this. When you were in when you were in the Marine Corps, what was your level of depression?

Like, what what what were you experiencing?

Mike Ergo 00:12:20 (link to this point)

I think I remember calling home once, and I think telling my own mom that I was I was in a funk, just kinda down. But for the most part, that was towards the beginning too when I was just, you know, getting the shit hazed out of me.

Chris Albert 00:12:42 (link to this point)

Yeah.

Mike Ergo 00:12:42 (link to this point)

But I think for the most part, was I was happy to be with the people I was with. And the circumstances were difficult. But that feedback I was getting, you know, reading those, those subtle cues and the nonverbal communication from other people and just being part of something was really positive.

Chris Albert 00:13:05 (link to this point)

Yeah, for me, I think when we were busy, I, I tended to not have as much depression. So like, if we're on deployment, or if we're, if we're, you know, we're doing a workup, or we're doing a lot of training, or like, periods when when I was boot camp, things like that, that's when I think I think back and I'm like, you know, there wasn't a lot, but periods when, like, we were up at Camp Schwab, Okinawa, and we're doing nothing for a little bit. And I remember that period being like one of the most depressive periods I'd ever had, because I'd find myself walking around and just like, doing nothing. And like, you know, okay, it's time for chow. Okay, it's time to go back to the barracks.

Okay, it's time to do this. Okay, it's time to do that. And that's when I would be like, like really, really dark. But I think in those periods, what kind of helped was, you know, trying to get a lot of PT and trying to get trying to trying to make something out of make noise in in in the kind of quiet that was there.

Mike Ergo 00:14:19 (link to this point)

That's true. That that there's something that, I mean, which goes along in the Marine Corps culture of rampant alcohol abuse. Alcohol is a depressant. So that that fed into periods of times of being depressed. But I think that no matter what the circumstance was, that if you get into and start feeling depressed, start feeling low, you know, start feeling a feeling of low self worth and feeling stuck. There's no matter what it is, there's definitely a few things that that can be done no matter no matter why you're feeling depressed, which is one of the things we can get into.

Mhmm. I think one of the things that has really helped me is and this is sounds counter this is counterintuitive. So not resisting the feeling of of that that sadness or the depression or whatever it is. So much energy can be spent pushing it away and be like, I don't wanna feel like this. Why is this here?

You know? Fuck this. But when I've allowed myself to stop resisting whatever needs to be felt, like there's a stuck energy that needs to move through, something I'm not dealing with that needs to just pass through me and for whatever reason, by resisting feeling that, I'm keeping it there longer. This really simple breathing exercise that that one of my my old mentors taught me was whatever the feeling is that you don't like, you can imagine yourself greeting it as you breathe in, you know, silently in your head just saying, for the example for this would be, hello, depression, as you're breathing in, and then as you breathe out saying, my old friend. And it's a simple way of of re like reclaiming your breath.

So you're breathing, and you're allowing yourself just not to resist it. And a lot of this happens kind of subconsciously, but it's a way of allowing yourself to to feel whatever's whatever you might be avoiding.

Chris Albert 00:16:41 (link to this point)

That's interesting. That's interesting because, you know, I I've I've definitely been there where I'm trying to fight it off. And I know the feeling of trying to fight it off because I feel it in my throat. And it's like stress that wells up, like, right in your throat. And then all of a sudden, my heart rate will my heart rate will start going up.

And that's when, that feeling of when I'm about to fight it, that's when I think it gets the worst, the absolute worst. You know, when I'm when I'm, like, really in despair. So it's interesting about about greeting it. I never thought about it that way before.

Mike Ergo 00:17:24 (link to this point)

Yeah, that I can relate to what you're saying about feeling that in the throat and just not wanting to be there and for for myself. We all have our different ways of of dealing with stress and discomfort. My go to has always been to disappear or dissociate, just kind of in my head, completely check out, almost like I'm invisible. Go back to, you know, early life trauma or a lot of different ways. But no matter what, I I noticed when I'm trying to fight it too, and that that is when it's the worst.

So that it's this goes ties into some of the work I do, you know, counseling other veterans and just the theory that the feeling itself isn't the problem. Mhmm. But it's the the unwillingness to feel that feeling. And especially if it's uncomfortable, it's like, well, if we think we can push it away, yeah, of course, that makes sense to try to push it away. But the the fact is we don't really have as much choice.

And so this isn't a position of weakness. This is a position of knowing what we can change and what we can't change. So the next thing, once I've allowed myself to feel whatever is there, whatever it is, is have some introspection as I'm and and ask myself, where in my life do I feel stuck? What could be the source of it? And I might not get an answer to this.

Mhmm. Sometimes it's clear. Sometimes it's not. But then if I identify a place in my life where I feel stuck, then I ask myself, is there an aspect of this I have control over? Is there something I can change?

And then what can I do? And also, is there an aspect of this I don't have control over? And in that case, can I accept my situation? Can I accept that part of it? You know, for example, the weather.

Can I change the weather? No. I can't. But can I find an acceptance that it's it's not the kind of weather I I want it to be or the climate at work or whatever something I I have zero influence over so I can stop wasting my energy wishing it wasn't so?

Chris Albert 00:19:42 (link to this point)

That's that's another interesting one too, because I've definitely been in that position where I've done a lot of shitty jobs. You know what I mean? Like, I've I've been a laborer. I've been a landscaper. I've been I've been all kinds of crazy things.

Right? And the thing is, though, what I found is that my the way I approach and I learned this in the Marine Corps, the way I approach the job is everything. Because like, I remember like, you know, cleaning cleaning steps with a scuzz brush, trying to make sure that, like, all the scuffs were out of the steps. And and I made it made it fun. Right?

And I made it, like, And like, that was everything. And that was, like, one of the best days of of boot camp, remember because I was freaking I was cleaning the scuzz scuzz brush, and we we had so much fun just trying to get these scuffs out. But, like, you know, same thing with, like, some of the labor jobs I've had. You know, I'm like, alright. I'm gonna move this many bags of cement in the next hour, and my boss is gonna be like, holy shit.

And and and, you know, and and even jobs I've like, I do contracting jobs right now with not not like construction contracting, but like like office contracting. So like, I I consult for companies, and a lot of times, the work is arduous. And, you know, I think to myself, alright, I'm gonna knock this CEO socks off. And like, it's kinda like playing a game with myself, you know, just just trying to Yeah. In there.

Mike Ergo 00:21:16 (link to this point)

Yeah. That's that's a good point. And so you notice, like, the the mindset is is everything. But then then when it comes down to it, really, like, how how can someone apply that mindset? And I think that the the creativity helps.

Like like you said, you make it a game or or you find an aspect of something as miserable it is that that you like or or can you even kind of make a joke out of? Yeah.

Chris Albert 00:21:43 (link to this point)

Yeah. Mean, it's like it's like it's kinda like what stoic say. You know, like, it's not it's not what's happening to you. It's how you perceive what's happening to you. Right?

Mike Ergo 00:21:54 (link to this point)

Yeah.

Chris Albert 00:21:55 (link to this point)

And like, if you could do that, I think you can you can make you I there's a lot of really dark fricking situations out there. But you can make the best out of those situations to the point where, you know, you can you can use those situations to your advantage. And, and I think that's that's part of it too, you know.

Mike Ergo 00:22:18 (link to this point)

That's, I mean, you think of the guys that you were with even in boot camp or in your unit who, you know, when you're doing some miserable field exercise, or maybe it's morning PT, and everybody's still drunk or hungover or feeling like shit. And they're able to make some either completely morbid joke, or, or something that just lightens the mood. And that changes everything. It's almost like they can break the spell of that depression. Yeah.

And and make light of the situation. So, like, those are the guys who that that kind of attitude, you hear it's so prevalent, like, in the the spec ops community. You know, there's the ability to to to make light of a tough situation. And then that mindset is, is everything. So one thing I remember in high school too, and I was talking about this yesterday with someone, is that I had a and this is a small example, but it was something that bothered me that I didn't have any control over.

I had this one teacher who would say, okay. And he'd say that all the time, once or twice a sentence. And it it it just, for whatever reason, just fucking annoyed me.

Chris Albert 00:23:30 (link to this point)

Like the South Park guy? Like, okay.

Mike Ergo 00:23:32 (link to this point)

Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Just like that. And so and so eventually, for somehow, I decided to turn it into a game because I just came to this point of, like, I can't change this because I was just dreading every time he said it.

He's like, don't fucking say it. I said it. And so then I just started tallying it up each class. And I I was like, alright, let's let's see let's see if mister B can break his record from yesterday. I think he's got it in him.

And I'd start, like, keeping a record of how many times he said it each class. And then I looked forward to each time it happened. And so it's like, I totally, like, changed my interaction with this this minor thing, and it became my favorite part of the class. Man.

Chris Albert 00:24:16 (link to this point)

That must have been brutal, man. That must have been brutal.

Mike Ergo 00:24:19 (link to this point)

Yeah.

Chris Albert 00:24:20 (link to this point)

Yeah. It was That's like in Yeah. Class. The Marine Corps version is like I remember people like, you get, like, these these instructors, and they were it was, like, their first time as an instructor. And they'd say, you understand that after every sentence?

Mike Ergo 00:24:36 (link to this point)

Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yes. I understand that.

Yes. And you hear people using just even swearing the wrong way, which became so prevalent at boot camp. I remember the first couple of weeks, I'm like, listening to all these drill instructors, like, all right, get your damn freaking, you know, boots and get your damn freaking socks. And you're like, nobody talks like this. And then it just like it took on.

It became an epidemic. One thing I was thing I was looking at in my own life, where I noticed so lately, went through I feel like I'm coming out of it right now. But I I went into a deep, deep depression right after I lost my dog in in October. And this is a dog I had since right after I got out the Marine Corps. So he, you know, he helped me through a lot of tough times. So I've been in and out of of some pretty deep depression since October.

And one thing that I noticed is that I did some introspection this last week. And I noticed that I asked myself those questions, where do I feel stuck? And part of it was at where I work. I feel stuck there. And some of it has to do with how I'm dealing with other people.

And I looked at, so what can I control? And some of it had to do with having a couple of difficult conversations with people that I didn't want to have. It's uncomfortable. And then realizing once I realized that there was a way out, if I was simply to do a difficult thing, my mood started to shift. And then part of it is I realized that there's some certain circumstances at work that I can't change, you how people are, their personalities, certain aspects of the job.

And can I accept that and just let go and and let it be how it's gonna be? And I and I noticed it wasn't instantaneous, but I noticed just pretty shortly after how my mood started to shift because I saw a possibility. You know? So that feeling of stuckness that nothing's gonna change, it's gonna be miserable is is central to depression. So even the seeing the possibility of something change can can shift the mood and and help you, you know, pull out of that pit.

You ever experienced that?

Chris Albert 00:27:05 (link to this point)

Yeah. Well, as an entrepreneur, I mean, all the time because, like I said, I'm a one man team a lot of the time. And, you know, a lot of times I mean, I've had situations where, you know, I'm wondering where the heck my next batch of money is coming from. Right? Because like, I I've gotten down to points where like, I'm like, how am I going to pay for groceries?

How am I going to pay for, like, I can't I've been in positions where I couldn't afford a cup of coffee. And there was no there was no immediate, like, very apparent change that I could make in order to to, like, switch that up. Right? It was just you had to move forward or you had to figure something out. And I kept, you know, especially, like, toward I wanna say around this time last year, I was, like, you know, constantly saying, you know, I gotta change this. This has gotta be there's gotta be something something different here. I'm 40 years old. I don't have a retirement saved up.

I don't have anything saved up. This this thing is my life. And so I made moves to to to make some switches. And what it took was I had to step back. Like, I had to step back and look at my my life and my business as an outsider. And the only way that I've been able been able to do that, you know, people it sounds funny, but meditation. Like, meditation helps me to detach. Right? It helps me to kind of like, understand where my thought processes are going. And because as a solopreneur, it's really easy to get wrapped up and get tunnel vision.

But meditation in various forms has helped me detach and and kind of understand those thoughts. And it's helped me to take a step back and look at my life a little bit more objectively. So I made a pivot. And that's where I was like, alright, you've been contracting for companies, you know, doing do teaching business courses for a while. Why don't you do that off on your own?

And that made a complete difference in my life and my business and everything like that, give me a completely different path to take. So it was like, and it was something that I couldn't see before. Like, I just couldn't see it at all. And and I wouldn't have been able to make that switch if I couldn't detach.

Mike Ergo 00:29:35 (link to this point)

That's true that the it can be so easy. And I think without being aware of it, that and it comes back to awareness is that so many of our decisions are emotionally driven. And not that emotionally driven decisions are bad, but if they happen, when we don't need them to happen, like we can't be objective about our situation, like you said, it can definitely hurt us. Well, you know, if we can step back and look at our life objectively and say, okay, there's a reason you'd like, let's say for me, and I'm looking at how other people are interacting with me. There's a reason people are interacting in a certain way.

What is it? And if I'm emotionally driven, my answer might be, oh, because they're fucked up. And and maybe that's just where it stays. And that's very gives me very limited data if I just look at it through that lens. But if I see, okay, maybe this is their style, and there's things I do that bother them.

So if I acted this way, you know, then we're thinking logically in that point.

Chris Albert 00:30:38 (link to this point)

Well, exactly. And and, you know, one thing I want to mention here, because just because the audience and because of of our own histories, but like, I think that, you know, getting out of the military, right, even if you were not if even if you didn't have the best military career, like, let's say you get out as like a terminal lance, and, you know, you didn't do much or anything like that, you're still coming out of a situation where people were paying attention to you. Right? So like you had reviews of of what you were doing, right? You had people evaluating you, people were paying attention to you, your life, your path, and whatever way those people cared about you.

Right? What you realize that when when you get out of the military is that nobody really gives a freaking damn if you're a fuck up. Like nobody cares. Right? And so and it's not that nobody cares.

It's that nobody's over your shoulder saying, hey, you know what? Fix this. Hey, you know what? Do this. And so when you get out, a lot of times, you can look back at your military career and you could say, you know what?

Those were that was my chance. That was my chance to be something. And now I'm out, and that chance is over. And I don't have anybody who's who's paying attention to me. So you could feel trapped.

Like, you can feel very trapped right when you get out. And that I think it's important that when you do get out, you try to get yourself into another situation where you are in a position to to feel like you have a mission, like you have people who who who are depending on you to do to do things. And Yeah. You know, I think that's so important.

Mike Ergo 00:32:29 (link to this point)

Even if it's just to to plan a party or plan a group run. And that that's one of the reasons I really, really love the the the group Team RWB, which I'm a part of up here in Sonoma County. Because you get that tribe of people, and you get that feedback from other people. And it's just it doesn't have to be anything important. Like, you're not you don't have to be a firefighter putting it in, you know, putting out structure fires or or doing anything really intense, but it's it's the social interactions themselves and the teamwork.

Chris Albert 00:33:00 (link to this point)

Let me ask you this, Mike, because I think it's important before we get off, the nature of your work, right? Because your job is is to counsel counsel veterans. Have you and you were talking about the mirror neurons? Does your job impact your mindset at all? Like, have you have you ever had that happen?

And how do you prevent that from happening if it does?

Mike Ergo 00:33:27 (link to this point)

That's a really good one. At first, when I when I was an intern, so yeah, so I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I direct a vet center part of the VA. When when I was interning and and working in the city of San Francisco with the the homeless outreach team, we'd go around and find homeless people that that our our mod or kind of our unwritten, you know, mission statement was that we'd find people who, even if they had the money, wouldn't be able to to pay for an apartment. You know, they they didn't have the ability to do that. And I encountered a lot of poverty, drug abuse, just really sad situations and and people just being evil to each other a lot of the times.

A lot of suffering, and I didn't know how to to stay separate from that energy. And I use the term energy, and it can sound pretty, pretty new agey. But I've I've seen it just in a practical manner. Like, if you talk like, you see, in the terms of if you have someone who's who's really negative and you're around them a lot, you can find yourself taking on that energy. It's just it's just how we are as people with those mirror neurons.

And so when I'm with working with people, I consciously decide that I'm going to be there to support them. But I'm not going to get wrapped up in that energy. And it takes it takes conscious effort to do that. I mean but there's things that that are more difficult to take on, and it can it can impact me. But I've had enough practice now that when I leave work, I I make a decision to to have that stay right there.

I realize there's some things I cannot fix and resolve for people. In fact, my job is just to guide them to make their own discoveries, make their own changes. And so it's that it's that it's that reminder that this is something no matter how many times I work with someone, it's up to them to make these changes. And I can be there as their support and to ask those those questions and those difficult have those difficult conversations. But when I leave the building, I leave it there.

And I listen to either music or a fiction story or a podcast. Something to add levity to the situation, you know, something funny, maybe or something that just completely helps me switch gears, so I don't bring that energy home.

Chris Albert 00:36:06 (link to this point)

Yeah, I think that kind of stuff is is really important, because we do have people who listen, who do have jobs where, where they could be carrying stuff back with them. And, you know, the the next question, I guess, is is, you know, thinking back with with with your experience in the Marine Corps, had could could you have applied anything that you know now to what you were doing back then?

Mike Ergo 00:36:36 (link to this point)

Oh, definitely. Definitely. My my mental strength, I could endure I can endure physical stuff. I mean, that's you learn that from day one in boot camp. But my ability to to deal with, I don't know, situations I I couldn't change or or I'm trying to think other different different personalities.

You know, I in some ways, I was I was still pretty immature. Mhmm. And I could have definitely applied my ability of of breathing, stepping back, you know, like, just like you were saying, stepping back and and looking at a situation and seeing what I can control, what I couldn't, what I could make a game out of, what I couldn't, and allowing myself to feel certain feelings. It was pretty easy just to push it off and kind of white knuckle it through. And I think the alcohol use definitely played into that, at least the level I took it to.

Yeah.

Chris Albert 00:37:43 (link to this point)

No. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Mike Ergo 00:37:45 (link to this point)

So there's a few practical things too that that can help anyone when you're in that state. And one of them, which I'm a big, big fan of now, ever since I started doing open water swimming in the San Francisco Bay, was just cold water. And why cold water? It's because cold water there there's a physiological effect that happens. You know?

When you jump in the cold water, it shocks you out of feeling depressed. I mean, your body, it all of a sudden feels very awake. But there are and and without going into the science of it too much, it's it's the easiest way to to make a change in your body. You know, it it can be daunting to to say, okay. I'm gonna have go have a a harder workout, do a CrossFit workout or something like that.

Things like that really help. But if you can just take a cold shower, or jump in a cold body of water, that will instantly change your outlook on life.

Chris Albert 00:38:53 (link to this point)

Yeah, that's something I've done every morning. I mean, I go in there, I'll run that shower. I'll stay under the cold water for about three minutes. And then Yeah. It really helps.

It really does help. And I was I was a big skeptic about it at first. I was like, you know, fuck this hippie shit. Stupid. But Yeah.

But just try it. Just try it. And and it feels great. It feels great.

Mike Ergo 00:39:17 (link to this point)

Yeah. There and then you get a rush of endorphins after because your body's like, what the hell is happening? Make this person feel better. So there's these are real scientific explanations for why it works, but it definitely snaps you out of it. It gets you out of that rut.

Another thing is sunlight exposure. Even when it's even when it is wintertime, if you can get out and have some sun exposure in large parts of your body, like say your your back. So if you're if you're in an area where you can walk around without a shirt on, or get some sun on your face, on your shoulders, then that's gonna help your body, you know, get that vitamin d. And and some of us have requirement for more of it than not. That's what I another thing I learned with my genetic information is that I need much more vitamin d three or vitamin d than the average person.

So the sun exposure.

Chris Albert 00:40:13 (link to this point)

Yeah. Yeah. It's and it's easy for us to say that the rest of the country is about to go into 25 below. I know.

Mike Ergo 00:40:21 (link to this point)

I know. And I'm outside like, goddamn it. I gotta put a sweatshirt on. Another thing too that anyone can do is going on a walk. And while this can sound simple, it's it's pretty powerful.

Because if you think about depression as stuck energy, It makes us feel stuck. Anyone who's been depressed knows how hard it is to get up out of bed sometimes or just to do basic things that usually aren't that hard to do. So maybe even going to the gym is more than you can do in certain days when it's pretty bad. But if you can tell yourself, okay, I'm just gonna go on a walk, and I'm gonna walk to the end of the street. And then if and and if by then I wanna turn back, I'll I'll let myself turn back.

But you gave yourself a very easy goal that you can start off with. Just movement itself brings possibility. Just movement itself is a physical representation of moving forward and not being stuck. And I was so surprised to see how how much that affected my outlook on things. Just the physical act of running and moving was something that Lisa Hallett, who started Wear Blue, Run to Remember, used to deal with the grief of losing her hub husband in Afghanistan, who is an army captain.

And I realized that when I've used working out, running, physical movement, that it helps me to physically and mentally move forward.

Chris Albert 00:42:00 (link to this point)

Yeah, that's cardio exercise in general, it's just always helped me to feel better, like always helped me to feel better. And, you know, I remember because I grew up on the East Coast. And, you know, during the wintertime, nobody does cardio over there. Like very few people do. Yeah, because I mean, it's it's it's cold, it gets cold, freezing cold. Nobody everybody puts on 15 pounds, everybody puts on like a layer of clothes so you can't see your body. And then everybody like like stays indoors and and everything like that. And I gotta say, you know, doing that out in nature, like out in the fresh air is so much different from doing it on a treadmill. Mean, a treadmill is good good to go, like, you know, just being outside and like catching catching the air in your lungs and and, you know, getting the proprioception of of like, hitting like, you know, different different terrain and things like that.

It's it's so such a different brain exercise.

Mike Ergo 00:43:03 (link to this point)

It is because it's it's this novel experience of of seeing different patterns and things in the shapes of of trees and plants that gives your brain it lights up certain parts of your brain and allows other parts of your brain to calm down. And I think now more than ever, it's important to do. So I found when I'm depressed, I'm more likely to be spending too much time on social media and looking at other people, other people's profiles and and, you know, this this idea that, you know, people are doing so well because they they post these inspirational things or these pictures of them doing well. And internally, I'll start comparing, and I'll be more depressed. But more than that too, you know, you we we get this reaction from, you know, these notifications and likes and comments and and things.

And

Chris Albert 00:43:58 (link to this point)

Yeah, it's a dopamine hit every time every time it you know, and and we we become addicted to it. And if you're not getting that feedback, then you then you fall into like a little bit of a depression. And, you know, I I've pulled pulled back a lot from social media in 2019. Yeah. I haven't been posting as much on Instagram, not because I not because I don't wanna keep posting on Instagram, but because, you know, I'm I'm constantly sitting there, like, thinking, alright.

What what can I get likes with? You know what I mean? And when I start thinking like that, I'm like, you know, I'm I'm kinda done with it. You know? And and and Exactly.

Wanna get the message out there, but it's still, you know, not at the cost of the mental numbness that comes from doing that.

Mike Ergo 00:44:50 (link to this point)

Yeah. And that's why taking a break and even just sitting outside and and just being with the sounds of of, you know, the wind or or being around some some of the natural life outdoors is is so beneficial to to recharge. So yeah, man, jump in that cold water, get some sunlight exposure, maybe take a vitamin D supplement and get outside and stop stop checking your fucking Instagram like a fiend.

Chris Albert 00:45:23 (link to this point)

I'll also add, clean up your diet. I mean, like, yeah, so many things that, you know, if you're constantly just eating sugar, I mean, sugar in and of itself can cause a lot of things. But like, if your your hormonal balance is off, because you're not getting what you need in your diet, and you're not not producing, you know, enough testosterone, you're not if you're overproducing cortisol, because you got a really inflammatory diet. I mean, there's so many things that could could lead to depression if you're if you're not taking care of yourself not taking care of your nutrition.

Mike Ergo 00:46:03 (link to this point)

Yeah, and one final practical thing, at least from me, that can sound weird, but that I have all my clients do because I've done and I felt the power from it is when I'm deep in a funk, or when I'm really anxious or restless, what helps me is I think of someone who's very important to me or someone who's affected my life positively. And I'll either find them in person or it's usually on the phone and call them up and and thank them for being so important to me. And so this is this is the practical aspect or the practical way of expressing gratitude. We hear gratitude a lot, but this is how it's done. Really putting yourself into it and thanking them for how they've impacted you and telling them what it is about themselves that's so cool or so good.

That is something that can because gratitude is one of the only states or feelings that we can really harness or create ourselves. And that is such a lightning fast way to get out of like a funk that it can't be overlooked.

Chris Albert 00:47:22 (link to this point)

That's huge. That's huge. Awesome, man. Well, so this is the the second joint episode of the Warrior Soul Transitions From War podcast. We got to come up with a name of Yeah.

Mike Ergo 00:47:39 (link to this point)

Of this. But someone listening to this might have some cool cool ideas.

Chris Albert 00:47:44 (link to this point)

Yeah. You guys have some some some names for this network that that we're putting together here. And the way it's gonna work is one week, we'll be here on the Warrior Soul podcast. The next week, we'll be over on the Transitions From War podcast. And we're kind of going to go back and forth and back and forth, unless we find another way to do it.

But I think that's that's that's the gist of everything. And then if anybody out there wants to wants to design some graphics for us or anything like that, let us know as well because we'd love to come up with kind of like a joint thing. But, you know, the reason why we're doing this is for all of you. And, you know, we're not asking for anything in return at all. All we ask is that, you know, you spread word about both of these shows, because they're both giving value to the veteran community and anybody else who's listening, honestly, because anybody can apply any of this stuff.

So if you get a chance, head over to iTunes and, you know, head over to the Transitions From War podcasts and head over to the Warrior Soul podcast. Just write us some written reviews, let people know that we're here, let people know what we're doing. And and, you know, even better than that, share an episode out with a friend who who could who could use some of this information.

Mike Ergo 00:49:12 (link to this point)

Yeah. That's that's about sums it up for me, man. So I love getting together with you, man. So I love the work that you're doing. And this is this is fun stuff.

Chris Albert 00:49:23 (link to this point)

Yeah, man. You You make getting up at 4AM enjoyable.

Mike Ergo 00:49:29 (link to this point)

Exactly. So you got some company now, Jocko.

Chris Albert 00:49:33 (link to this point)

Absolutely. Absolutely. Alright, everybody. We'll we'll talk to you again next week.