Episode 41: Healing PTSD and Addiction with Psychedelics

Chris Albert 00:00:00 (link to this point)

What's going on everybody? This is Chris, and I'm coming to you today from a back porch in Austin, Texas. Today, we have a really interesting episode for you on psychedelics. But first, I have a few announcements to make. One, this podcast is brought to you by the Warrior Soul Agoge.

What is the Warrior Soul Agoge? It's your guide to living your best life. We provide tons of information on everything you can do to make your life better through fitness, through wellness, and through better nutrition. We've got articles, we've got podcasts, we've got a video, a new video up there every single day that teaches you something about nutrition and something about how to make your body and your mind perform better. We've also got some amazing training programs up there as well as different types of supplements like Dinotropin which I'm going be talking about in a second.

You can find us over at www.warriorsoulagoge.com that's www.warriorsoulagoge.com like I said you're gonna find some amazing information up there about everything related to fitness, wellness, ketosis, nutrition, anything that you need to live your best life, it can be found at the Warrior Soul Agoge. This podcast is also brought to you by Dinotropin. Dinotropin is a natural human growth hormone secretagogue. And it uses patented liposomal technology that helps to stimulate your pituitary gland to release more growth hormone. It's 100% natural, 100% legal and it's been proven in thousands of clinical cases to raise human growth hormone levels by 50% to 200%.

Now why is this important? Well, human growth hormone is responsible for so many different functions around our bodies and it also relates to the rest of our hormonal production. Helps us to perform better, to think better, and to feel better. And with this type of technology, it really absorbs. This is not one of those bunk you go with hormone supplements that you're gonna find.

This was developed through years of clinical research by Doctor Mark Gordon and his team and it's been proven in thousands of clinical cases. So if you're interested in checking out Dinotropin, come on over to warriorsoulagoge.com and click on supplements. It's under the fitness head, the fitness menu on the Warrior Soul Agoge website. Again, Dinotropin at www.warriorsoulagoge.com.

Chris Albert 00:02:57 (link to this point)

The subject matter of today's episode is both interesting and controversial. We're going to be talking about psychedelics. When we bring this subject matter up, most of the time people think of something like hippies dancing wildly at Woodstock under the influence of LSD, or they think of bad trips, or they think of people committing heinous acts under the influences of drugs that can seriously affect their brains. But more and more, we're starting to understand psychedelics not as recreational substances, but as plants and medicines that can help us to heal, heal our psyches, and heal some of the blockages that occur in keeping us from being the people that we truly want to be. Doctors Dan Engle and Martin Polanco are both some of the top researchers in this field.

They've dedicated much of their work to understanding how psychedelics can help people to overcome things like addiction and post traumatic stress. And it really makes sense if you think about it. In this world today, we're surrounded by so much technology. Sometimes we take for granted the fact that some of the most complicated technology in the world exists in our own brains. It doesn't come with a user's manual or an instruction guide.

Many many people think that plants and psychedelic medicines provide a sort of instruction guide for helping us to understand our own brains and to get through many of the blockages that hold us back. So with that, I'll bring you into episode 41 of the Warrior Soul podcast, which I was not a part of because I had to fly out here to Austin, Texas to participate in Paleo FX. But Andrew and his brother Adam did an amazing job interviewing both of these doctors and get helping us to understand how psychedelics may help us to overcome our own obstacles here in this life. So with that, let's get into episode 41 of the Warrior Soul podcast.

Chris Albert 00:05:42 (link to this point)

This is Chris Albert, and I'm here to remind you of one thing. Someday, you're going to die. Now that's not some morbid statement or scary idea. It's solid fact. Your time here on this earth is limited.

We need to be reminded of this as much as possible for one simple reason, to live your best life while you can. This is the Warrior Soul podcast.

Andrew Marr 00:06:14 (link to this point)

Great. Hi everybody. This is Andrew Marr with the Warrior Soul podcast. And today, my brother, co founder of the Warrior Angels Foundation, Adam Marr is joining us as a host on the show. And we're bringing you Doctor Martin Polanco and Doctor Dan Engle. Gentlemen, we're so incredibly excited to have you on the show to introduce probably a new topic to our audience. And with that being said, Doctor Martin, what is your relationship with psychedelics?

And what is your why for administering them clinically?

Martin Polanco 00:06:53 (link to this point)

So I've been working with psychedelics for the past sixteen years, and we use them in a clinical and therapeutic setting to help patients struggling from opioid addiction, depression, and post traumatic stress disorder. I got into this line of work trying to help a family member, and I saw her go through an addiction and then come out of the addiction by using Ibogaine.

Andrew Marr 00:07:19 (link to this point)

Doctor Dan, same question to you. What's your relationship with psychedelics and what's your why for administering them clinically?

Dan Engle 00:07:28 (link to this point)

Yeah, my background is in psychiatry. Went through all the medical training, adult psychiatry, child psychiatry, forensic psychiatry. Had a practice in integrative psychiatry for a number of years, helping people come off of medications, which was good. We were doing great work. And psychiatry is essentially the study of the mind from the medical perspective.

And about ten years ago, I was introduced to Ayahuasca. And in one weekend workshop, I had about the equivalent of one decade of good psychotherapy in regards to personal awareness. And at that point, was just hooked. Because in my experience, there's nothing as efficient, effective, and safe when used in a good way as the medicines for helping us get straight with who we are and what we're here to do.

Andrew Marr 00:08:15 (link to this point)

That's fantastic. Now psychedelics often get a bad rap sometimes. And when you look at like... When we were growing up, the only thing that was really talked about was acid. And the conceptions and what was portrayed to us on what people that were using that, once we reached adulthood and started looking in and and and seeing the real science behind it, was so far from what was actually really going on.

And it seems that there's almost a resurgence in these modalities. Why do you think that is, and what do you think is contributing to that resurgence? Either Doctor Dan or Doctor Martin, feel free to answer.

Martin Polanco 00:08:58 (link to this point)

I think the initial resurgence was greater openness by the FDA and the DEA to allow some of this research. And this happened through the auspices of a nonprofit organization called, MAPS, which is the Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies and also the Heffter Research Institute who basically pushed for approval of these initial and very important, studies to prove that these substances are safe and effective when used in a good way. I think in the past few years, we've seen a resurgence because a lot of the conditions that we're seeing in the West that are not well treated by, Western medical models and by psychiatry such as addiction, end of life issues, and post traumatic stress disorder are particularly well suited to be treated by psychedelics. We just had a conference recently, which was the largest gathering of researchers and clinicians involved with psychedelic therapy and psychedelic research. And it was definitely very exciting to see how many people are now on board and doing this work above ground and with very sound clinical practices.

Andrew Marr 00:10:09 (link to this point)

Doctor Martin, what was some of the outcomes of that last meeting? Were people coming from all over the country? And how has that been different than past meetings and consortiums that you've been to in the past?

Martin Polanco 00:10:23 (link to this point)

Well, I mean, definitely the the the international scope of the attendees was was impressive. And really seeing the breadth of of the research that's going on and and at top tier universities too. So there's research going on at NYU, at Johns Hopkins, at UCLA. So it's very, very exciting, very impressive to see what's what's happening in the field right now.

Dan Engle 00:10:47 (link to this point)

And let me... If I can also just chime in on that too. Martin's bringing up a really good point, which is that MAPS is one of the lead organizations globally supporting psychedelic research. And one of the cool things that they did too, not only was it a massive gathering of the lead clinicians doing this kind of research, they also open sourced the information. So they streamlined for free all of the talks, and they're going to video bank them on their site for free globally.

So they're, being, essentially like a poster, exemplary organization that is, not only, promoting the information, but they're also advocating everybody be able to access this kind of information. And so that's one of the large movements behind this psychedelic renaissance, is because people really believe in these methodologies and they want people to understand their benefit.

Andrew Marr 00:11:50 (link to this point)

And Dan, MAPS is able to do predominantly the majority, if not all of their funding independently as well, right? So they're not funded by pharmaceutical companies or government subsidies, so there's no real biases leading to their conclusions. Is that correct?

Dan Engle 00:12:06 (link to this point)

That is correct. And it's one of the things too that is just another kind of great reflection of this grassroots movement. There is a huge interest in looking at the medicines for a variety of indications like Doctor Martin mentioned. Many of the areas where current psychiatry is really poor at, the medicines are really good at.

And oftentimes people get into the conversation because of a personal experience or because of somebody in their immediate environment having a personal experience. So there's this really strong depth of being an advocate and a champion and an ambassador for this kind of work, which you don't see in the general medical establishment. Because allopathic medicine only has a few really champion causes, and one of those being battlefield medicine in the OR, in the ER, triage style crisis management. That's where allopathic medicine shines. But allopathic medicine, including psychiatrists, are really weak at preventative care and long term chronic care.

Andrew Marr 00:13:21 (link to this point)

No, that's great. And I think in doing some research for the show, I came across one of your examples and I really loved it. And it was talking about the Rwandan crisis and how we sent Western doctors over there to try and heal them. Can you talk about that a little bit? Because I think it just really kind of gives a good focus on the differences in Western medicine, Eastern medicine, our cultural viewpoint within The United States and America, and how we try to approach healing and how it can be ineffective as given by your Rwanda example.

Dan Engle 00:13:56 (link to this point)

Yeah, it was kind of a fascinating study into trauma recovery. How we approach it in the West versus how many indigenous cultures approach it. So with the Rwanda genocide, when the Hutus and the Tutsis were warring with one another, there was something like over half a million people killed in, like, less than a year. And most of that was not by gunfire. It was by machete.

I mean, really brutal death on a large scale. And when the humanitarian aid came in, many of those were Western trained psychologists, social workers, clinicians, and they were desiring to use a Western model with the traditional culture to resolve that trauma. The reflection that many of the people going through that healing recovery experience, including the tribal leaders, looked at that approach from the West as being really contralateral to how they would approach it. For example, they said, you in the West, you try and isolate us in a closed environment inside and and have us talk about all of the things that were horrible. This is exactly the opposite of what we would do.

We would be outside in nature together sharing the experience and celebrating life and celebrating what we have. And so it was like, okay, everything that we typically do is kind of diametrically opposed to what many cultures who are closer to nature would do. And when we also reflect that having the opportunity to come together as a healing community, celebrate what is present, yes, and be together with one another to grieve the trauma and heal it and release it and move it through. Many of the cultures there dance and drum and sing and move it through their systems, which is more of what happens in nature. If you look at gazelles or deer when they're hunted and and, they come into a a near death experience or a close encounter, they'll shake it through their system and then trot off.

So it moves somatically through the system and out. We tend to kinda over intellectualize it and try and keep it kind of in the in the brain and in the psyche and only address it from the kind of the mental sphere. And then another cool thing and a follow-up, don't think I I shared in that last podcast, was when they when they did a retrospective, study looking at the healing that had happened when the tribes kinda came together, there was this national reconciliation movement. And right now, through that national reconciliation movement, ninety two point five percent of those that were experiencing that kind of trauma and death and and had other family members and friends experience death, ninety two point five percent had come to reconciliation and forgiveness.

Martin Polanco 00:17:11 (link to this point)

Wow.

Dan Engle 00:17:12 (link to this point)

It was a massive number to just recognize that they don't hold on to resentment largely when the trauma is moved through the collective and into the community and then out and forgiven and moved on. We tend to hold on to so much of our own suffering here in this community and in this culture and nationally. And so we can learn a lot from what are the benefits of being able to address talk therapy, but also what are the variety of different ways that we can come into grief and trauma work and actually start to resolve that. And in my experience from the West, I don't think there's another better methodology and framework for doing that kind of trauma recovery work than the psychedelic medicines.

Andrew Marr 00:17:58 (link to this point)

I mean, that level of recovery is unparalleled and unprecedented. So when you transfer or transition today, looking at the Western medical model as it's applied, let's say the veteran arena or community, people who have been exposed to things that has led to traumatic brain injury or post traumatic stress. Doctor Martin, how would you recommend then or how have you been able to treat that or help treat that? And what are some of the things that we've been able to learn from that?

And then after that, Doctor Dan, if you could also chime in with your regards to that as well.

Martin Polanco 00:18:40 (link to this point)

Sure. So our main focus has been treating opioid addiction. The majority of our population is using heroin or, you know, various pharmaceutical types of of pain pills. So they're strung out on OxyContin and Vicodin. And most of these patients, seventy percent, I would say, got into it because of a doctor's prescription.

So they're not your average or your typical... What, you know, society assumes are are are typical addict. The way that we approach, you know, treating them is we stabilize them. We assess them. We make sure that they're in a in a good and healthiest place to to to detoxify, and then we utilize iboga and ibogaine to help them get off, opioids with minimal discomfort.

The main barrier to enter treatment is overcoming the withdrawal. And patients fear withdrawal more than they fear death. And this is also why they they will do all sorts of, you know, behaviors which which seem crazy from the outside, like stealing or prostituting themselves or putting themselves in very risky situations. This is just because they wanna avoid withdrawal. For them, withdrawal is is like having a really bad flu combined with sleeplessness and anxiety.

And they know that as soon as they use a little bit of of heroin, they're gonna feel normal again. So what the iodine does, it takes away 90% of these symptoms and allows them to enter sobriety, in a very easy and painless way. We then followed up three days later with a dose of five MeO DMT, which is derived from the venom of the Sonoran desert toad. And this allows patients to have a a mystical experience, which is a very sealing and therapeutic effect on them. And we found through our research that it's the depth of the spiritual experience which predicts long term success.

So that's the majority of our work.

Andrew Marr 00:20:45 (link to this point)

Doctor Martin, can you go into a mystical experience and kinda define... Because I I know it's kind of... It might be misunderstood by a lot of people. So what what exactly does that mean, the the mystical experience, spiritual experience?

Martin Polanco 00:20:59 (link to this point)

So so... Yeah. So there's there's there's different scales to measure mystical experiences that have been devised mainly by people studying theology and religious experiences. They include, you know, sense of oneness, sense of connection, infinite love, feeling that the... That what is being experienced is more real than reality.

And doctor Dan can also add add more information on that subject. He has a lot of experience with different plant medicines and how they can occasion mystical type experiences.

Andrew Marr 00:21:36 (link to this point)

Mhmm. Yeah. So, doctor, what would you say for

Dan Engle 00:21:38 (link to this point)

You you a great foundation there. When we're talking about the varieties of mystical experience, a lot of that is from the earliest writings with William James, who wrote the varieties of religious experience. And so when we release the kind of religious dogma and we get back into just the mystical sense of a spiritual connection, all of those aspects of oneness and timelessness and a sense of connection to a larger, benevolent experience with the universe. And whatever that person's relationship with God's spirit creator is, it's that recreation with something larger than ourselves that is predictive of a healing experience because it helps us remember that it's not just about us. And we're not just this kind of, like, isolated, orphaned microcosm walking around in the universe, at a whim.

We're actually part of an entire benevolent, structure of living, consciousness on one collective planet that we call Earth. Everything is connected. And, spiritualists have been talking about this for thousands of years, and scientists are now starting to see that as well. And it's phenomenal that more and more of these, science and nonduality and science and consciousness workshops and experiences are being propagated and accelerated in the self help movement. Right?

If you go into the bookstore now, the area on self help grows exponentially, like monthly, because people are recognizing that we can take responsibility, a 100% responsibility of our own selves and our own experiences. And so that doesn't mean that we don't hold accountable those people if we're gonna look at it, like, from a veteran network. It doesn't mean that we don't hold accountable the US government and the scheduling of, psychedelics by the DEA. Yes. We should hold, those government officials accountable for the detrimental and and weakened care that they're giving our veterans at this point.

And we know that psychedelics are just kind of one example, but a very good example of a very hypocritical scheduling classification that unfortunately makes it illegal, excuse me, illegal for a lot of these substances to be used, by veterans. And in fact, if you do, if I'm a veteran and I have, like, a 100% service disability for something like PTSD and I go to seek some of these treatments and I'm using something that unfortunately is schedule one, then that could threaten my service connected disability. And so there's a huge hypocrisy. Most of the the medicines in schedule one don't even belong in schedule one because there's two classifications for schedule one. One that means there's no known medical benefit, and the second is that it's highly addictive.

Ibogaine's a great example of how it fails on both accounts. Ibogaine is not a recreational experience. It's a pretty horrendous experience for many people to go through. But yet the liberation on the other side, whether it be releasing from heroin addiction or any other kind of addiction because I became really therapeutic for many addictions besides just opiates, deliberation that comes through that experience is pretty phenomenal. So that's why people will opt into a system even though they don't do it because it's gonna be a pleasant experience.

They know that it's gonna be a healing experience. So, fortunately, your... This podcast is a great example of the more forward thinking movement and the grassroots movement that's looking towards legalization of the medicines so that they can be effectively offered in a safe container for those that are ready to have the experience.

Andrew Marr 00:25:49 (link to this point)

What are those other addictions that you have seen high success rates, whether they went in intentionally to have that addiction to try and overcome that, or whether it was maybe something that they didn't even know they were addicted to and were able to come out through this treatment and see that they were in fact addicted, had a problem, and it was having a negative impact on their well-being?

Dan Engle 00:26:15 (link to this point)

Was that question directed to

Andrew Marr 00:26:18 (link to this point)

Well, it's just a follow-up to you, Doctor Dan, just saying

Dan Engle 00:26:21 (link to this point)

Yeah. That there's several different there's two parts... Ways to answer that question. Number one is is specifically with ibogaine.

Ibogaine helps to wipe the slate clean, so to speak, neurochemically. It works on 40 something different receptor profiles. Many of those are kind of the cardinal neurotransmitter profiles that we, from psychiatry, are aware of, serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine, etcetera, well as the opioid, mu and kappa opioid receptor profiles. So it kinda seems to go in and just kinda reset everything neurochemically. Right?

That's what's happening in the hardware. What's happening in the software or the belief systems and the attitudes also uncovers and and kind of reconfigures over time, and that is where the integration work is extraordinarily important. When we're looking at success rates over time, doctor Martin's right in that people's experience of success is proportional to their experience of a reconnective healing and reconnection with whatever their sense of, like, a larger purpose slash spirit or god is as well as the integration support moving forward over time. Because if somebody comes to an ibogaine experience and they get kind of, like... Their their whiteboard is kind of reset back to zero, if they go back into their home environment and all of the triggers and all the social cues for that addiction are still there, there's a high likelihood they're gonna gonna relapse.

If they have addiction recovery support in aftercare on the other side, their chances of success go up exponentially. So that's a couple of just different ways that we recognize that the experience with something like ibogaine... We could also say the same thing is true for Ayahuasca, psilocybin, MDMA. Going through a healing experience, it's important to be able to integrate that now moving forward in life.

Martin Polanco 00:28:36 (link to this point)

So... Yeah. So people come to us seeking, mainly treatment for opioid addiction, but it's rare that they only use one drug. It's mainly polysubstance abuse. So they're, you know, combining their heroin with with Xanax.

They often smoke cigarettes. They drink alcohol. At some point, people become very, very well versed in psychopharmacology, and and, they know what drugs to use to fall asleep, to get energy, you know, depending on on the the the mind state that they're trying to achieve. When somebody comes to us looking just for help for alcoholism, I don't think ibogaine would be the first line of treatment. So I often refer them to Ayahuasca practitioners or, you know, more traditional Western models, primarily because when when when a person is physically addicted to alcohol, they shouldn't take ibogaine because the withdrawal from alcohol can be deadly.

And I... Ibogaine doesn't do anything for for the physical withdrawal, of, alcohol dependence. The same goes for for benzodiazepines. When somebody is using large amounts of benzodiazepines like Valium and Xanax, they need to taper off slowly. They can't expect Ibogaine to be the detox because it just doesn't work, they could have a seizure, and then that's very dangerous.

Andrew Marr 00:29:55 (link to this point)

Doctor Martin, what is the difference between DMT, which seems to have a growing popularity and then five MeO DMT and then Ayahuasca? Can you kind of briefly go over those and then how those could be used in certain settings for for medical benefit?

Martin Polanco 00:30:13 (link to this point)

Sure. So DMT and five MeO DMT, they're structurally very similar. So DMT, what's commonly known as DMT is actually NN DMT, and it's found in in various plants, including in the the brew of ayahuasca, which is... Which itself is composed of two or more plants. The the difference, I would say, is, from a phenomenological perspective, like, actual felt experience is different.

With NNDMT, it's a very visual experience. And with five m e l, it's more of an embodied, sense of unity, connection, oneness, and love. It's it's often referred to as... So NNDMT is also referred to as a spirit molecule, and the five m e l is referred to as the god molecule. So it's it's it's a different experience from a from a felt experience, but, also, chemically, they're they're they're different from a perspective.

Andrew Marr 00:31:13 (link to this point)

Is it that the molecule interacts with the pineal gland? What is the mechanism to produce these mystical states that oftentimes can then have these profound new understandings which otherwise would not have been able to come to?

Martin Polanco 00:31:33 (link to this point)

Yeah. Both molecules, the NNDMT and five MeO DMT, they're already present in the spinal fluid and then the brain of of, most animals, including humans. So they are neurotransmitters. They they serve a function in the, you know, healthy human brain. And when you flood the system with with a large quantity of them, they stimulate certain receptors, which in the case of five MeO DMT, help you differentiate self from other.

So they're receptors that allow you to to tell where your body ends and the rest of the universe begins. So when you flood the system, the person does the ability to tell that difference and and hence that experience of connection and unity and expansion that most people feel. In terms of the research that I began this... I mean, DMT is produced by the pineal gland. I'm sure Doctor Dan has a lot more information on that as his expertise includes Ayahuasca.

Dan Engle 00:32:34 (link to this point)

Yeah. It's interesting how there are so many different plants in the natural world that produce high quantities of DMT as kind of extracts as well as animals too. So you've got ayahuasca is classically two primary plants put together. One of those plants is DMT and the other plant has an enzyme inhibitor that prevents the breakdown of the DMT. So when you're using something like Ayahuasca, it lasts for close to six hours in the system.

If you're using something like five MeO DMT from the Sonora Desert Toad, it lasts for, like, fifteen to twenty minutes. And I... You can kinda conceptualize it like the entire experience of Ayahuasca may be compressed from a six hour period into a fifteen minute period. And it's strong, quick, transdimensional, so to speak, and that, like, consciousness goes back to creator. That's why it's called the spirit molecule or the god molecule.

And in the return from that, there can be great recall. Like, people really have a complete narrative about what happens. And people oftentimes come back from the experience not really fully knowing what happened, but having a sense of a reconnected experience of oneness. So whether it's highly, remembered or not, there's still the healing narrative and, the healing underneath that is present. With, Ayahuasca, you can also add other plants that magnify the experience.

So these are like different animal and plant molecules as cousins. Psilocybin is another example of that. Psilocybin is another form of orally active DMT. It's called four phosphoryloxy DMT. Again, like a four to six hour experience.

And there's a lot of really good research to suggest that DMT is produced predominantly when we're born, when we die, and even, in between, so to speak, those two bookends in the spiritual kind of awakening experience. It's difficult to do human models because we haven't actually devised sophisticated sampling methodologies to be able to look at the live active human brain and see exactly what are all the neurochemicals that are produced in the midst of a spiritual experience. And that kind of research is also what's gaining more and more momentum all the time.

Andrew Marr 00:35:28 (link to this point)

Doctor Dan, how did these medicine... And I know that it's been documented that you suffered a very traumatic brain injury at a younger age. I'd be anxious to know your thoughts on how you think these medicines have helped aid you in that recovery process, specifically as it pertains to traumatic brain injury.

Dan Engle 00:35:50 (link to this point)

Totally. Happy to talk about that too because it has a lot of relevance for Yes, it Coming back from horrendous experiences with the neurological ramification of trauma being the traumatic brain injury, right? That's what's happening in the neurochemistry, the neurology, the brain tissue hardware, as well as the software experience of the trauma itself psychologically, and that's PTSD. So you're looking at a continuum. On the physical side, TBI.

On the psycho emotional side, PTSD. All of it stemming from the consistent experience of being either getting your head really whacked. And in the current kind of way, so to speak, that we experience war trauma, particularly veterans on the front lines, there's a new classification of that called BIN, brain induced neurotrauma. And it's this like really high frequency devices, that are exploded and the brain kind of ricochets at this really high frequency so that you can get actually the experience, neurologically of several 100 brain traumas in a very short window. So there's a variety of different ways that the brain experiences trauma.

Yes. And what happens when the healing is expressed through something like Ayahuasca is that it happens to both help release the embedded trauma, both physically and psychologically. The way it does it physically on the neurology side is it stimulates BDNF, which is brain derived neurotrophic factor. Or essentially, that's like the growth of new neurons. So it helps to heal the contused brain at that level of focal trauma.

So the scaffolding gets repaired, the neural pathways get repaired physically. Psychologically, it's the experience that doctor Martin was kind of alluding to before when he said like, you know, there's a part of the witness perspective of the brain that comes online and is able to, through the experience, to be separated from the fear center as well as the memory center. So if we're able to... Going through that process, you're able to see the trauma happen, feel it, but not get overwhelmed by the fear to the to the extent that, like, all the survival mechanisms kick in, armor shuts down, and you can't, really get back into the felt sense of it. And then the memories of it come back online.

So being able to go through that corrective experience with multiple areas of the brain now being able to like look at this, and re experience it for a a corrective experience, for a healing experience, there are very few other modalities that help that kind of, perspective happen. Classically, the only two that I know of that are consistently spoken about in the literature are near death experiences and hypnotherapy, where you're able to kind of walk back through a potential trauma, see it from multiple perspectives, and reincorporate that traumatic part of the self back into a new integrated whole. That was my experience with Ayahuasca. After half a dozen severe brain traumas that we could talk about in a whole another kind of like workshop, there was the felt sense of healing neurologically, and there was the felt sense of healing the traumas associated with each of those injuries.

Andrew Marr 00:39:54 (link to this point)

Doctor Dan, how is it that emotional traumas are trapped in the body as stored energy or in the lymphatic tissue? Can you speak on that? Because that's just fascinating.

Dan Engle 00:40:09 (link to this point)

Yeah, I've had the opportunity to study with some really wise people, much wiser than myself, in the field of chiropractic medicine. And my first mentor was a chiropractor named Roger Bell. And it's appreciated through chiropractic medicine, physical oriented medicines like osteopathic medicine, even massage therapy, that quote unquote, the issues are in the tissues. Which means that neurochemical substrate, the neurochemical peptides that are released through different energetic profiles, different emotional states, flood the system responding to something in the environment, and those peptides can lodge... I can jump back on.

Can you hear me well?

Andrew Marr 00:41:06 (link to this point)

Yes, sir. We can.

Dan Engle 00:41:07 (link to this point)

Okay. Yeah, just to kind of recap on that, peptides are held in the system. Neuropeptides are released depending on what emotional experience is happening, what mental experience is happening, responsive to an environmental stimulus. Right? So something that makes us happy, excited, moving forward, that is a whole neurochemical cascade that's different than something that's fearful, that that makes us retreat, become scared, blocked off, walled off in survival.

So those neuropeptides have a myriad of effects in the system, and those peptides get lodged into the soft tissue, oftentimes in the lymphatic system, which is kind of like the circulatory system of the soft tissue. And we see it experientially, whether you're going through some kind of like myofascial release work, deep tissue massage, osteopathic or chiropractic adjustments, you can see a wave of psycho emotional, mental emotional release happen once that's dislodged. Same thing with the medicines in Ayahuasca working to clear the system from the inside out.

Andrew Marr 00:42:20 (link to this point)

Now, as far as in the process, so if a veteran has a TBI, the first place you're gonna go obviously is some kind of ER or first trauma. Where in the process do you think that the plant based medicine fits in? Because obviously there's some stuff that has to be taken care of first. It's not like you're going to receive the brain injury on the battlefield and be like, alright. I need I need some Ayahuasca.

I need to get it.

Dan Engle 00:42:48 (link to this point)

So Great question. Funny enough, we're talking about TBI because I just wrote a book called the concussion repair manual that's getting launched right now. And I had a whole chapter in the concussion repair manual on psychedelic medicines. Because psychedelic medicines have a healing experience neurologically with the traumatized brain. We see that.

We know that Ayahuasca and Ibogaine produce brain derived neurotrophic factors. They help support new neuronal growth. Psilocybin does that too. Cannabis does that too, particularly CBD and the cannabidiols. So the medicines have a place, but you're also correct in that once a TBI has occurred, step one is crisis management, triage care, emergency care.

That has to happen. So once the system's stabilized, then you come into the healing arts to know what else is necessary to decrease the inflammatory load, to be able to bring the system back towards homeostasis as quick as possible. There's a variety of different technologies, supplementation, lifestyle management tools and techniques to utilize. And then after that, once the system is stabilized, then yes, we can move into the discussion about does it make sense to use a psychedelic medicine and at what time does that make sense, what medicine to use, and kind of like how do we set the stage for an integrative therapeutic protocol?

Andrew Marr 00:44:22 (link to this point)

Yeah, great. That was going to be my next question. Getting into the preparation stage, how do you manage or how do you recommend managing expectations, setting intention, and then going about and actually integrating that experience into your everyday life?

Dan Engle 00:44:40 (link to this point)

Great question. Anytime we're talking about having a psychedelic medicine healing experience, we're talking about a three phase approach, which is preparation, number one, experience, number two, integration, number three. And the preparation work for something like Ibogaine, what Doctor Martin and I have seen, if we are taking somebody who's had a ten to twenty year history of heroin use daily on the streets, they may have like zero preparation. Maybe their family found Ibogaine therapy, they got in touch with Crossroads and they sent their loved one down.

So there might be very little preparation. And that doesn't mean that the experience can't still be meaningful and that the integration is not still important. So the preparation can take a variety of different styles. Ideally, there is the discussion about expectation. There is discussion about, what the intentions are trying to...

When using something like Ayahuasca, then yes, there's usually the discussion around what's called the dieta, or how to prepare the body in order to have a safe, meaningful experience. Usually when we're going through that kind of opportunity for healing, it helps to have a really deep supported preparation process and a deep supported integration process just as much as the experience itself. But if we're looking at, like, the 30,000 foot view, I think you can make a good case that the preparation work is, like, 10 to 20%. The experience is, like, 30 to 40%, and the integration is, like, 50 to 60%. Because if you don't integrate it, it won't be lasting.

That's a necessary piece. So coming back to kind of like your original entry point in the preparation, it's all about releasing expectation. Making sure that the experience is gonna be safe, that the people that you're working with, they know what they're doing, they have high integrity, the medicine is clean, clear, and that the environment is conducive to that healing experience, not just a recreational journey. It's not just doing a trip with a friend who doesn't know how to hold space. And there's a lot of expectations that get built in.

The medicines, when we let go of expectation, we trust the experience and we trust ourselves in the experience, they're gonna do what they're gonna do. Medicines give us what we, need, not necessarily what we want. And so a lot of people will have a frustration if they have an expectation that something particular is gonna happen and then that doesn't happen. And so they think the whole thing was just unmeaningful. That's kind of like one of the more unfortunate outcomes because everybody's experience, it's done in a safe, good way, and the medicines are held well, everybody's experience is valid.

And it's just another part of the healing process.

Andrew Marr 00:47:45 (link to this point)

Doctor Dan, what would you recommend for a safe set and setting?

Dan Engle 00:47:51 (link to this point)

It's kind of depending on the medicine that's being used, what it's being used for, and where it's being done. Unfortunately in The States, unless you're a part of a clinical trial, all the medicines are illegal. Yes, there's a huge underground movement. Again, this is a grassroots movement. People know the medicines work, so they're seeking them out on their own.

If somebody's going down that direction, it's important to know that that whoever is facilitating that work is extraordinarily experienced. I've heard just unfortunate stories of of people going down to the jungle, having a week or two experience with Ayahuasca, and then coming back to The States and starting to facilitate ceremony, which is, incompetent, number one, and negligent, number two. So it's important to know that the space can be held well. What's that person... What's that facilitator's energy?

What's their experience? And do they know how to work as a spiritual EMT? Which means if the shit goes down, do they know where the ripcord is? Do they know how to safely manage a crisis situation? Just like we would do in emergency care.

Right? So the safest thing to do is to recommend people go outside the country for something that would be like Ibogaine. Crossroads in Mexico, I think is is one of the most sophisticated, well run clinics for good, safe addiction treatment. For Ayahuasca, the Temple of the Way of Light is just another kind of classic, very well run, high integrity, good medicine facility down in Peru. And unfortunately, not everybody's gonna be able to afford to be able to travel internationally for this kind of work.

So it's our due diligence as a medical field to do what we can to reschedule and reclassify these medicines, offer them in a good way that's available to the masses. We know they're safe. That's why MDMA and psilocybin are going into phase three trials right now. They've already cleared safety profiles. Ibogaine is one of those that needs to be managed well by a medically trained supervised clinician because of the way it affects the heart.

So there are certainly medical protocols to put into place to ensure that safety. And ultimately, a person going through that experience has to take 100% responsibility to do their own homework and to listen to podcasts like this, get as much information as possible, but still dropping the expectation. And try and find well oriented altruistic facilitators who know how to use the medicine targeting their desired outcome. Right? So if it's somebody healing from TBI or PTSD, great. Then work with a facilitator who knows how to do that, that has positive experience using medicine for those outcomes.

Andrew Marr 00:50:54 (link to this point)

Doctor Martin, what have you I'm seen trying to get some feedback. Hold on a second, guys. Doctor Martin?

Martin Polanco 00:51:04 (link to this point)

I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question?

Andrew Marr 00:51:06 (link to this point)

No, no. Yeah. Was getting some feedback. Was fixing that. What's your experience when somebody's brought into the Crossroads Ibogaine, and they're coming kicking and screaming? In other words, they're not wanting to be there. It's like a last ditch effort by the family and they're not, they haven't bought in, but they're there. Have you experienced that?

And are they still able to have a beneficial outcome in that setting there?

Martin Polanco 00:51:36 (link to this point)

Well, we we generally don't take those patients because if they are not ready to get clean, then there... There's no intervention on this planet that will get them clean. I mean, it's addiction. This is both, you know, physiology, and it's a choice. So people, you know, make the decision to use or not to use.

And, yes, once, you know, they become physically addicted, they lose that choice. But even when we get somebody clean with Ibogaine, gonna have to make that choice whether to use or not to use. So when when I explain this to families is that this this this medicine is is just empowering them to to have, choice again. And if the patient is not willing, you know, to get on the phone with us and talk to us and and we don't get the sense that they're ready, we we don't even take them as patients. People are also able to back out of experience up to any point.

Like, we never force people to take this. It's completely voluntary, and people are are in Mexico because they wanna get clean. Sometimes we we are not able to get to the root of of of of where the decision got made. And and, yes, the families do pressure patients, to to get this treatment either by threatening to cut off support or, you know, there there there might be, you know, children involved, and they might lose custody of the children. So that it's a little bit cloudy there. And I have seen people have great experiences and they do get clean. But in general, change comes from within.

It can't be imposed from the outside.

Andrew Marr 00:53:11 (link to this point)

Doctor Martin, what's the process if somebody wants to come to Crossroads?

Martin Polanco 00:53:17 (link to this point)

Well, the first thing would be to talk to one of the intake coordinators to get an understanding of what the process is and what it's not, and also to see if they're good candidates. Like I mentioned earlier, if somebody is primarily using benzodiazepines or alcohol, this might not be the best route for them. If somebody has heart issues or liver problems, then ibogaine is not a good option for them either. The next step would be for them to talk to the medical screener who's a a US trained nurse that helps to make sure that these drugs that are in the system will not interact with IV gain. Once all that is clear, then they...

Their flight, they come to the program. We do a drug test. We do a very thorough medical evaluation. We do an EKG. We draw blood, and we determine, you know, whether they're healthy enough to take the treatment.

Then we stabilize them utilizing morphine. So instead of them, you know, continuing to use heroin, we we we switch them over to a legal opioid so they don't go into withdrawal, and they're ready to take the treatment.

Andrew Marr 00:54:29 (link to this point)

What's the success rate been, Doctor Martin, as far as sustainability of remaining sober or off opiates and opioid addiction after the treatment?

Martin Polanco 00:54:41 (link to this point)

So we've done an outcome study and we measured the outcomes of 100 patients over the course of two to four years. This was done by researcher by the name of, Joseph Barsuglia who is trained at UCLA. And what he found was that twenty seven percent of patients did not touch their drug of choice, which means that they they stayed completely sober, which is really high for for opioid addiction. And then there was an additional thirty percent that saw benefits, in their use. For example, they they switched from one drug to another that was not as harmful. For example, when somebody switches from heroin to to cannabis, that traditionally would be considered a failure. But in my mind, if somebody is switching from heroin to smoking a lot of pot, that's harm reduction. They're not gonna die from that addiction.

So that that would be a success. So in their own understanding, they they are better, and they they they consider the treatment to have been successful. So it's a good sixty percent of people that are helped by it, but they're not all clean by traditional metrics or standards.

Andrew Marr 00:55:51 (link to this point)

Sure. Doctor Dan, when you see that it's a software issue or problem or the individual understands that it's a software issue, what would you recommend to that individual for healing, software healing and also self exploration?

Dan Engle 00:56:10 (link to this point)

Yeah, I come back to the summary statement. I don't know of a more effective intervention for our day and age and how the Western mind works than the psychedelic medicines, for getting us, upleveled in our software. Essentially, upleveling our operating system, helping us get clear with what the trauma is, where it lies, how it got instilled, what are the default programs that we're all running. Do those come from childhood issues? Do those come from our ancestral lines?

Is that part of the cultural imbalance right now? I mean, right now, we are in the midst of so much innovative technology, but yet we're doing that willingly to the severe detriment of every every other species on the planet. Every other species is negatively impacted by the human drive right now as well as the system at large, as well as the the planet at large. So that is also getting impregnated into the system. We are all carrying the collective consciousness, if you want to describe it as that.

So it depends on what level that we're talking about of the software. Most people are entering a healing experience because they're having something from their own perspective, depression, anxiety, addiction, PTSD, end of life anxiety, you know, things that are causing mental and emotional suffering. That's usually the entry point. And yet the healing that happens is oftentimes beyond just that. It's oftentimes beyond just me healing my own personal experience.

It's me healing my relationships with my family, my relationship with my own self, my life, the planet itself. Like recognizing that maybe I've been living in a way that was unauthentic to me, trying to meet other expectations and trying to gratify society's norms for success. So there's just so many different ways, and it's all individual. It's all unique. It's still unfathomable to me that like every snowflake is different.

If you look at it like under a microscope, that's just crazy. Same thing for people. Everybody is unique. So everybody's healing experience is going to be unique. And when we go through that experience, the medicines have a way of bringing that subconscious material to the forefront so that we can examine it, we can heal what's not been healed, and then we can become more integrated as a whole self now moving forward in our life.

Andrew Marr 00:58:59 (link to this point)

When administered the right way, have Doctor Dan or Doctor Martin, have you ever had a patient that's been like, that was horrible. I wish I wouldn't have done that. I'm worse off for it.

Because I don't think I've ever really encountered a story like that. And I'd just be interested to hear your point of view.

Dan Engle 00:59:18 (link to this point)

I'm happy to answer that. Doctor Martin, do you want to as well?

Martin Polanco 00:59:22 (link to this point)

Sure. I'll have a stab at it. So the majority of people that take Ibogaine, they are glad they took it, but they don't want to take it again. It's not a recreational experience. So...

But they they feel that it's it's beneficial and that it helps them. So, yeah, there's that. And then and when it comes to the five MEO, it it it is a very powerful experience, and there are definitely people that, you know, have a rough time letting go and that are probably never going to take it again. But even the bad or the difficult experiences can be immensely therapeutic.

Andrew Marr 00:59:59 (link to this point)

But even that goes back to what Doctor Dan was talking about, right? With the preparation, expectation, and integration. And by doing that work, oftentimes that helps offset some of those negative experiences.

Martin Polanco 01:00:14 (link to this point)

Absolutely. Yeah.

Dan Engle 01:00:16 (link to this point)

And I'll just speak to that too because I also want to help us remember that the medicines aren't for everyone. And the times when I consulted on clients who have had a really bad outcome, it might be something where their expectations weren't met. It might be something that part of the healing has happened, but not the full healing has yet happened. So their material, so to speak, is getting brought up to the surface, and now they're having to come into contact with something that was really uncomfortable, and it has not yet reached full resolution. So it might be like, well, geez.

Now I got all this stuff to look at. I wish I... You know, I didn't know that was there. I wasn't expecting that all that stuff that I had put so far down, I didn't realize that was to come up and now I've got to deal with it and that kind of sucks. And my response is, yeah, that sucks, but let's process what that is towards healing.

And when that example, when a person stays through the process and is able to get through that challenge, come to terms with what has been repressed, the vast majority of time that comes into a very healing experience. So sometimes it's just the process. Secondarily, because these medicines are not for everyone, okay, well who are they not good for? Specifically people that have a history of mania or psychosis. Maybe that somebody wanted to have a breakthrough experience and they didn't disclose to the facilitator that they had that history, or they had a significant family history of that happening and they were already showing some signs.

So they got more ungrounded and it was harder for them to kind of land back with a sense of a wholesale, a self. So that becomes really challenging to deal with at that point. So I tend to just play it safe and say, okay, well, contraindications to this kind of medicine work is anybody with that history. Because if you mix those experiences with the medicine work, you've got to really know what you're doing. And I've seen people, I've seen facilitators down in the Amazon where I was studying be able to work with psychosis and mania in that space, but it takes a really high level of sophistication.

So it's just much safer to not do it.

Andrew Marr 01:02:37 (link to this point)

Doctor Dan, what impact do you hope to have made as far as in this realm looking back at your life's work? What would you like to have seen changed or different than when you started?

Dan Engle 01:02:50 (link to this point)

Oh, that's a juicy question. Three parts come to mind. One, right now, is what I'm doing, for example, with you guys, which it's always a privilege and an honor to do, is to be an educator and an advocator for the medicine work, for the right use of the medicine. So essentially to bridge the medical community, specifically psychiatric medical community, with the psychedelic medicine community, with the traditional medicines that are utilized and have been utilized for hundreds, if not thousands of years for benefit in our kind of cultural and human evolution. Number two is to see that we can reschedule and reclassify these medicines into a much more appropriate level.

And that's not to say I'm not a complete advocate of full legalization because I think there's an art to using these well, and not all of them are just kind of across the board safe. So that's a larger conversation, but at least to be able to say, let's move them out of schedule one into schedule two or below to be able to have access to the people that need it the most. And number three is to be able to open up psychedelic medicine centers, centers of awakening, which I call satori centers. So people that are having an experience in the kind of umbrella of psychiatric suffering, depression, anxiety, addiction, PTSD, etcetera, can come into a center for healing and have a meaningful experience facilitated by trained professionals towards resolution. They have the whole compendium preparation, experience, integration.

I think we have the ability to create those centers. That's what I'm doing with full spectrum medicine, is creating essentially the prototype for what does the blueprint for the psychiatric renaissance look like. And I think we have a variety of sophisticated technologies that are synergistic and we can put into healing centers for the good of the collective.

Andrew Marr 01:05:05 (link to this point)

That's extremely powerful, Doctor Dan. Doctor Martin, I'll throw that same question to you. Looking back on your life's work, what impact would you like to have seen been made?

Martin Polanco 01:05:17 (link to this point)

I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question?

Andrew Marr 01:05:19 (link to this point)

Yeah. The same question that we asked doctor Dan. Looking back, you know, at at your life's work, what impact would you like to have seen made, in this specific space with the plant medicines?

Martin Polanco 01:05:33 (link to this point)

I would say that, you know, echoing doctor Dan, I think the the the the important thing is to reclassify and reschedule these medicines, not necessarily towards full legalization, but to a category where they're, restricted to be used by professionals, but that they're allowed, and that the people that need them have access to them. I would also like to create a model of care that, integrates, you know, the best therapeutic, aspects that we have of the Western model along with Eastern modalities and also psychedelic therapies. Right now, what we're building across the street, have a five story building, and we're building up different floors to house, you know, therapeutic neurotechnologies like brain stimulation and neurofeedback along with, flotation therapy, microbiome restoration, helping patients also restore their hormone levels, and having all of these different modalities under one roof. So if if I'm able to create a model that then can be replicated, I I would be very happy with with that.

Andrew Marr 01:06:47 (link to this point)

Doctor Martin, where can people find in... More information on you and Crossroads and and everything else you got going on right now?

Martin Polanco 01:06:55 (link to this point)

So the website for Crossroads is crossroadsibogaine.com. And if they want to chat with us, that's the best way to get in touch.

Andrew Marr 01:07:03 (link to this point)

Okay. Great. Is there anything else you'd like to say to the audience or any other information you'd like to convey?

Martin Polanco 01:07:09 (link to this point)

I'm just really grateful for what you guys are doing and very happy to have been on this podcast with Doctor Engle.

Andrew Marr 01:07:16 (link to this point)

Yeah, it's been our absolute pleasure. Doctor Dan, where can people find out about your work and how to get in touch with you?

Dan Engle 01:07:25 (link to this point)

Yeah, two URLs are probably the best, most direct route. One is fullspectrummedicine.com. That's where essentially we're talking about what is this blueprint for the psychiatric renaissance, creating these new centers for healing and health? And secondly is the book that I'm launching now, the concussion repair manual, and that's at the concussionrepairmanual.com. Actually, it's no no duh, just concussionrepairmanual.com.

Like I mentioned to you before, I pulled the chapter on psychedelics from that book because I wanted it to be more applicable to the wider audience. And we're gonna bring that chapter into a future book because there is a lot of cross pollination in the medicine work not only being used for the software issues in the mind system, but also for the hardware in the neurological system. So that'll be forthcoming. And as Doctor Martin said, it's always a pleasure to be able to talk about this kind of work.

Doctor Martin and I have shared this stage, so to speak, in a variety of different podcasts. And it's always good to be able to synergize with him and our mutual missions. And thankful for what you guys are up to. Please keep doing it.

This is how the the movement, gets, propelled, past the point of biasness from the legal governmental stages. You guys are helping to build the grassroots movement so that this big wave has no barriers and can really help people heal.

Andrew Marr 01:09:00 (link to this point)

I couldn't agree more, Doctor Dan and Doctor Martin. We both learned about you through the podcast medium as well. And so our hope going forward is that this information is now available to a veteran or another listener that didn't previously have access to it.

So it was a complete and total pleasure. I enjoyed listening to you and diving into these topics as always. So thank you very much for your time. Yep, gentlemen. We'll end on that.

It's been the Warrior Soul podcast with Doctor Dan Engle and Doctor Martin Polanco. We'll see you next time.

Dan Engle 01:09:36 (link to this point)

Take care guys.

Andrew Marr 01:09:37 (link to this point)

All right, gentlemen. Thank you so much.

Chris Albert 01:09:44 (link to this point)

What's going on, guys? It's Chris again, and I'm just coming back at you to let you know that the show notes for today's episode, if you wanna get linked to doctor Polanco or doctor Engle, we'll be including links to them in the show notes, and that'll be at warriorsoulagoge.com. It's under podcasts, and it'll be episode number 41. Also, I wanted to remind you that a lot of the success of the show really depends on you and your reviews and letting us know exactly what you think of us and letting us know what you think about the material, letting us know what you think about the guests. We wanna give you everything we can to help you to live your best life, and we wanna know if we're having an influence or not.

So whether you leave us a one star or a five star review, just head over to iTunes and leave us a review right now. Let us know how we're doing. Of course, if you leave us a five star review, it definitely helps us out, and it helps us to get out there to more people because it increases our exposure on iTunes. Also, of course, we definitely appreciate your support. If you shop at Warrior Soul Apparel or Warrior Soul Agoge.

It definitely helps us to continue our mission here on this podcast. Helps us to pay for the bandwidth and helps us to get more information out there as well as helping us to keep the lights on here at Warrior Soul Studios. So with that, we'll be at back at you next week. I'll be back on with Andrew, and we are interviewing the famous science author, Gary Taubes, author of Good Calories, Bad Calories, and The Case Against Sugar. That'll be a fantastic episode, and we look forward to bringing it to you very soon.

Till then, get out there and live your best life. This is Chris out.